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Discussion: Dave Brubeck Quartet: Time Out

Posts: 58
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Post by soundboy July 27, 2012 (31 of 58)
rammiepie said:

Perhaps it's high time to release Dave Brubeck's other companion piece Time Further Out as AP seems to be doing what SONY, itself, refuses to do......release their own SACDs at more affordable prices.

I don't mind that at all. If US Sony Music is wary of releasing SACD on its own*, then license the music out to AP, MoFi, or whoever to do it. As long as it gets released.

* Note that Japan Sony Music continues to release new SACD titles each month

Post by armenian July 27, 2012 (32 of 58)
This SACD is the number one top seller on AP list, hopefully this will convince AP to go after “Time Further Out”, it would be a safe bet that all those who bought this SACD will also order the Time Further out.

Vahe

Post by Beck September 21, 2012 (33 of 58)
First I'll just quickly say I thought it was a little harsh when I posted a 'reply' instead of a review on the page for this title and only 2/7 said it was useful. I did confirm that the multichannel mix is the same as the Sony one, so if that's what you're after and you own the old one, there's not point

If you never got this on SACD before it went out of print you should. 10/10 classic album. Period

But if you own the Sony SACD and are a 2-channel person?

Well now thats where it gets interesting. Subjectively: The Stereo version on the Analogue Products sounds very different. The piano of the Sony version and the sound in general is more 'in your face'. By comparison the Analogue Productions sound is quieter, sounds like you're sitting 10 or 20 rows further away but with more echo and spatial qualities.

Why? Well if you look at the ISOs of these two SACDs and then the individual DSD files (not an easy task) you will see that for the whole album there is a difference of only 0.02GB file size.

But convert those files to AIFF then analyze them with a program like AudioLeq on the Mac and you see a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE. The AP version more closely resembles the old Sony 24K Gols SuperBitMapped (SBM) version of this title on CD. THE SONY SACD CLIPS ! - AND THE DYNAMIC RANGE NUMBERS are ABOUT 5 dB WORSE on the SONY VERSION.

The AP version waveform is entirely different. On the Sony, quiet passages are made louder and the loudest passages just clip at 0 dB. It certainly explains the difference in sound

The Sony Deluxe Edition 2 CD + DVD version sound comes in somewhere in between: louder than AP but oddly doesn't seem to clip or sound as loud/compressed as the Sony SACD. But it still sounds somewhat flatter than the Sony SACD

So I prefer (1) AP SACD (2) Sony SBM 24K Gold CD (3) Sony SACD (4) Deluxe Edition.
But Keep in mind the Deluxe Edition has a live at Newport Feature plus the DVD with interviews with Dave Brubeck. I still find that version worth owning.

If anyone wants to see the waveforms let me know and I can put them on my dropbox and share the files - it really shows visually (and the dynamic range numbers confirm) what I first heard subjectively.

The Link in Image URL doesn't work reliably so see post below for the images:

Post by Beck September 21, 2012 (34 of 58)
Dynamic Range Analysis 4 Versions using Track 1 (Blue Rondo a la Turk)

I hope these links work

Analogue Production SACD
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ykx33fixa8qocrn/TimeOut_AnalogueProductionsDSDtoAIFF.jpg

Sony SACD
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6dtts7jzhtut6py/TimeOut_SONYSACDDSDtoAIFF.jpg

Sony Super Bit Map (SBM) 24K Gold CD
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ftpzsgxsw9lrqp0/TimeOut_SBM.jpg

Sony Deluxe Edition Reissue CD (in 2 CD + DVD Set)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dwwajs6zji2yncj/TimeOut_DELUXE.jpg

Post by Beck September 23, 2012 (35 of 58)
see my analysis on page 4 - AP is much better than the Sony in 2 ch version

Post by RWetmore October 31, 2012 (36 of 58)
Beck said:

see my analysis on page 4 - AP is much better than the Sony in 2 ch version

Agreed, but it would have been even better still if Gus S. would have used the Grimm converter. The transfer suffers from some of the artificial softness and/or roundness associated with DSD (no fault of Gus S. who did the transfer). Why anyone would use anything but the Grimm when they have it as an option is something I'll never be able to understand. Oh well, to each his own I guess.

Post by audioholik October 31, 2012 (37 of 58)
RWetmore said:

Agreed, but it would have been even better still if Gus S. would have used the Grimm converter. The transfer suffers from some of the artificial softness and/or roundness associated with DSD (no fault of Gus S. who did the transfer). Why anyone would use anything but the Grimm when they have it as an option is something I'll never be able to understand. Oh well, to each his own I guess.

Erdo Groot (Polyhmnia) admitted in another thread he can't afford to buy the converter so no future recordings from PentaTone will be recorded with the Grimm.

I'm afraid that other labels are facing similar financial dilemma.

Post by Claude October 31, 2012 (38 of 58)
RWetmore said:

Agreed, but it would have been even better still if Gus S. would have used the Grimm converter. The transfer suffers from some of the artificial softness and/or roundness associated with DSD (no fault of Gus S. who did the transfer). Why anyone would use anything but the Grimm when they have it as an option is something I'll never be able to understand. Oh well, to each his own I guess.

Gus Skinas authors SACDs. He doesn't do the tape transfers.

Bernie Grundman mastered the new SACD. You can check his equipment here:

http://www.berniegrundmanmastering.com/technical.html

Post by audioholik October 31, 2012 (39 of 58)
Claude said:

Gus Skinas authors SACDs. He doesn't do the tape transfers.

Bernie Grundman mastered the new SACD. You can check his equipment here:

http://www.berniegrundmanmastering.com/technical.html

Every tape to SACD transfer mastered in his studio will remain a missed opportunity unless he upgrades or borrows the unit from Bruce Brown or Gus Skinas.

"To fully capture the nuances of tape, I feel the only way to do that is into either DSD64fs via a Grimm AD1 or to DSD128fs."

http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-bruce-brown-puget-sound-studios

Post by RWetmore October 31, 2012 (40 of 58)
audioholik said:

Erdo Groot (Polyhmnia) admitted in another thread he can't afford to buy the converter so no future recordings from PentaTone will be recorded with the Grimm.

I'm afraid that other labels are facing similar financial dilemma.

That's too bad, especially when it has been available now for over 8 years. BTW, how much does the Grimm AD1 cost? More than 5K?

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