Thread: SACD Enthusiasts...Are There Enough Of Us?

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Post by petermwilson August 14, 2003 (11 of 44)
If it wasn't for Home Theatre and the requisite 6 speakers dvd-a or sacd would never have seen the light of day. HIREZ mltich music has to piggyback on equipment that folks with an HT already have (save a special dvd player or two and an interest in music)

When we sit down to watch a movie, we use all the same equipment, and it has our undivided attention.

When it comes to music, HIREZ or not, very few people listen to it as anything other than a background contribution to whatever else their doing.

I don't know who'se job it is to educate people that listening to a high quality well done sacd is like witnessing a live performance and deserves their undivided attention.

I have over 150 discs in both formats. Although my players are entry level there both mltidisc and I have a flagship reciever and excellent reference quality speakers. I also have a player that will upsample 44/16 tp 88/24 for playing redbook cds and use DPLII to create a quasi mltich.

I am just about to use that player to play my RedBook version of Chicago 5(check that it's ChicagoIX that i have not 5) to see what it might sound like in true HIREZ.

Anyway I'm with you so you can count me in as one more convert.

Peter m.

Post by zeus August 14, 2003 (12 of 44)
Dinko said:

The strange part about amazon: they don't list SACDs which are SACDs, but they do list as SACDs titles which are not SACDs.

Well I just went through and verified, as best I can, 698 SACDs on Amazon's US site ... probably more than they thought they had! Some of these are REAL hard to find. Anyway, if you use the "buy" links from this site you won't have to bother with Amazon's search engine ever again.


Post by petermwilson August 26, 2003 (13 of 44)
I also feel that it's way to early in the game to worry about these HIREZ formats. I would bet that within 2 years every dvd player that comes out will be as universal as dd and dts are today. And STEREOPHILE magazine will change its name.

The people I feel for are the 2ch and analog audiophiles because they Will capitulate and when they do they will want a setup of the same quality for mltich as they have now and its' going to mean Big Bucks and I think their style is liable to be 4.0, which makes alot of sense.

Guys like me who piggybacked on HT will also be a big part of the market. I have no preference for either dvd-a or sacd, to me its all about the music and I love my Miles Davis 2ch sacds as much as the mltich ones.

Peter m.

Post by sound_labs September 1, 2003 (14 of 44)
Khorn said:

I enjoy reading and posting to this forum but, I am beginning to wonder about attracting new users and more discussion to this site. I believe there are about 177 members here at the present time, a great number of us frequent the other couple of discussion groups that include SACD in their topics.

I guess one question is: how many SACDs are sold and listened to in that format, not as a CD in a Hybrid like the "stealth" marketed Stones discs?

Another question is how to promote this site other than "preaching to the converted" so to speak as in the groups referred to above?

This site is a great asset to **US** (dedicated SACD users) but numbers are required to survive and grow and I'm just not sure where these numbers are going to come from.

I'm not too confident in the way I perceive the marketing of SACD is taking shape 'specially in the mass market or critical mass area.

We just might have to be resigned to the possibility that SACD might remain in the realm of the "audiophile" similar to the MFSL, DCC and Classic Gold discs or the JVC XRCD line. I sure hope that isn't the case but, at the present time I tend to wonder.

Anybody have ideas about this?


I think that the audio folks here shouldn't worry, and here's my theory, or just what I'm seeing.

I understand people being concerned that consumers as a whole don't care about hi-res music, and IT'S TRUE! Scary huh?

But those consumers don't matter. These are the same folks that turned their nose up when CD came out and said they liked their cassettes just fine. And what happened to the cassette?

SACD is coming and staying whether anyone likes it or not. The proof is in the pudding. Sting's new disc Sacred Love is being released as a single inventory Hybrid SACD. What does that tell you? More and more SACDs are coming, soon they will all be that way. Sure only 0.1 percent of those buying the disc will hear the SACD portion, but that still puts a hell of a lot of software out there, that gives the hardware guys a reason to add SACD playback, and it's getting cheaper every day to do so.

On the hardware side, more and more of the the cheapo to mid-level players are getting SACD playback installed. I just can't see it dying because of how it will transition.

So let's say in 2005 there will be ton of decks playing back SACD, and a lot of software. Will a lot of people be listening to the SACD layer? It's kind of a whether you like it or not scenario if you ask me. Sony, Philips and Sony Music are too big to let this cash cow die. They can't license the CD anymore cause the 20 years are up. They have to make this work, and so far, with hybrid discs and more hardware available to the common folk, they are getting there.

It seems slow as hell at times, but I can see it all happening. As for their crappy marketing I have a guess on that. It could be seen as a waste of dollars per impact right now because the software/hardware aren't at the critical mass at the moment. Their dollar might go a longer way if they make a hard push in 2004 or even 2005 to educate consumers and push the format. It's all just my theory, and that's how I'd do it.

I wouldn't blow a ton of cash when it's slowly building at the moment without any big push. And let's face it, where is the metal, the Rap? Where's the big handful of mainstream pop titles to push it? The very first rap title in SACD history will land October 2003 and when the kids with money to burn take a look, that will help push things along.

- Tony

Post by A_Klingon September 7, 2003 (15 of 44)

As suggested elsewhere, I did indeed arrive here via a 'Google' search. Good call. :)

I don't own an sacd-capable machine. I have never seen an sacd player. I have never seen an sacd _disc_ (unless it was one of those sneaky unmarked Stones' ones). I wouldn't know I was listening to an sacd if it walked up and bit me in the ass.

And unless/until someone in the marketing/manufacturing/recording/technology sectors don't soon get off their highly-paid butts and DO SOMETHING CONCRETE about marketing SACD, as well as educating consumers, as well as educating *sales people*, as well as releasing *affordable* titles in a quantity marginally acceptable to rise above the most miniscule of niche formats, as well as keeping set-top player prices reasonable to attract a mass market:

a) I never *will* own an sacd.
b) I will never want to.
c) The format will head the way of the Dinosaur.
d) It will *deserve* to fail.

I am jaded yes. Damned skeptical and tired of waiting. Tired of the broken promises, corporate bullshit, corporate greed, back-room politics, high prices, posturing, delaying, lack of record-label support, bitching, whining, self-serving interests, and all the STOOPID, wasted energy that has been hopelessly squandered, never to be recouped, by the damned dvd-a/sacd format war.

I am saddened that I may never feel an emotional pull towards music again. Music died within me years ago as red-book redefined the lower depths of audio fidelity.

How long has sacd been out now? How many releases are available? How much record label support does the format have?

HMV Records here in Halifax, Canada, are selling Pink Floyd's 'Dark Side Of the Moon' sacd for $49.99 Canadian + 15% taxes. We're talking almost $60 canuk bucks for a single release, folks. You know what I think this particular HMV outlet can do with their Pink Floyd discs, don't you? I had to arm-wrestle a reluctant confession from the HMV sales guy on the phone, that most of their sacds are in the $40-50 range. Try replacing your precious viny collection at that rate. Aside from the obvious gouging, this is just one isolated example of what I suspect is happening in retail stores all across Canada/USA. A terrific way to promote the new format, eh?

I don't like to read websites that say many sacds have a persistant 'buzzing' sound. I don't like reading web-reviews of Fantasy Records' "Creedence Clearwater Revival's" 'Chronicle' sacd. One star. ("The worst SACD I have ever heard! Two words: Stay Away!"). Makes me wonder just how lousy the rest of their recently-released Creedence sacds sound. Thank you very much, Fantasy Records. I can see you too are doing your part in promoting the new format.

People need to be educated. If you walk into the vast majority of stores and say "sacd" (or even "dvd-a"), the sales people look at you like you're from some other planet.

In recognition of a *few* achievements that I can't ignore, (and that I am quite grateful for), is that general sacd-player prices seem finally to have come down enough from their stratospherically-high price levels, that most people can afford one. I want to buy one myself, but I am refusing to yet, not just for spite's sake, but because no one has given me a whiff of proof that the format is ultimately going to survive past this time next year. And I don't want to invest in too many $60 Floyd albums when/if Sony/Philips decide to announce that sacd is going the way of betamax/elcassette, you know?

I like the concept of sacd versus dvd-a. It just *feels* like a more likely format - aimed at music lovers and audiophiles, not riddled with a lot of frivolous eye-candy, snazzy but taxing menu-systems, and user complexity. (Much as dvd-a seems to heap on top of their dvda discs). You wanna "dazzle" me? Do it with music, not with video, please. I LIKE the thought of popping in an sacd disc without having to turn on the monitor, wade through set-up screens and choose from multiple options for every freeking different dvd-a I insert. That's the way it should be. Set up the player *once* and let it be.

I want to see meaningless sterile words like "digitally-enhanced" and "interactive menus" and "product" and "multi-media content" change to.... "warmth", and "depth", and "presence", and "bite", and "ambiance", and "hall acoustics", and all the words traditionally associated with having an emotional experience that no dvd-video or dts or dd 5.1 will EVER deliver! I want people to understand why 5.1 channels of lossy, mp3-like audio cannot ever replace 2-channels of genuine hi-resolution audio.

And I want the established world-wide multi-national record label moguls to release their back-catalogue material, loving remastered by caring people who know what the F--- they are doing. Don't need any more shitty Creedence sacds. Right now, for the most part, I believe it is only the relatively small handful of audiophile companies releasing new content (like Opus 3 in Canada) who are giving the full chance that sacd deserves, and are doing it at considerable financial risk to themselves. I want to give them my support, but I don't trust the people who are ultimately handling sacd's future.

Yeah, music died within me some years ago with the advent of the compact disc. The sparkle in my audiophile-eyes has been reduced to two little piss-holes in the snow.

Way ta go, music industry. Yeah! More MTV videos! THAT's what we need! MORE "PRODUCT".

- Mike --

Post by Dinko September 8, 2003 (16 of 44)
A_Klingon said:

HMV Records here in Halifax, Canada, are selling Pink Floyd's 'Dark Side Of the Moon' sacd for $49.99 Canadian + 15% taxes. We're talking almost $60 canuk bucks for a single release, folks. You know what I think this particular HMV outlet can do with their Pink Floyd discs, don't you? I had to arm-wrestle a reluctant confession from the HMV sales guy on the phone, that most of their sacds are in the $40-50 range.

Try Wal-Mart. I got Dark Side for $18.99CDN from Wal-Mart Canada. You must have a Wal-Mart somewhere in NS. :)

In fact, you have a number of them:

Post by A_Klingon September 8, 2003 (17 of 44)
We sure do Dinko (about 5 mins from here), and I will certainly check them out! (Thnx for the info). I would not have though Walmart could/would be upbeat enough to know what an sacd was. (I bet the sales clerk won't know).

Post by Khorn September 8, 2003 (18 of 44)
I got mine (a Japanese pressing) a while back at Costco (Downsview Toronto) for around $14 CAN if I remember right.

Post by Tom September 8, 2003 (19 of 44)
I bought my SACD player almost 3 years ago when there were only 3 players (all Sony) and less than 100 SACDs. That was the time to wonder if SACD would survive. I now have no question that SACD will survive. It may not supplant the CD this decade, but it's clearly more popular than Gold CDs, 96/24, HDCDs, DVD-A, etc.

By the way, I think DVD-A will also survive.

Seeing the almost 10 years its taken SACD and DVD-A to get where they are today, there's nothing on the horizon to threaten SACD or DVD-A for the next 10 years.

Post by vonwegen September 13, 2003 (20 of 44)
I got here by Google, too.

Here in Germany, it's hard as hell to find SACDs for sale, except for the 'stealth' hybrids. Saturn in Köln (Cologne) has a limited selection of pop/rock SACDs, alongside an equally crappy selection of DVD-A titles. The easiest way to find a SACD is to order thru

Average price for a single-layer SACD is 22.99 Euros; SOME hybrids go for about 17.99, unless you can find one at Dark Syd of the Moon [pun intended ;)]for 14.99.

DVD-A titles go for 17-18.99 or so.

What gets me is the fact that I just learned that Amazon France is selling the very same upcoming hybrid Bowie SACDs "Ziggy Stardust" & "Scary Monsters" for 12.34 Euros. Pricing discrimination, anyone? Ten whole Euros less than each of these will sell for in Germany!

Both hi-res formats are likely to succeed here in Germany just because it's typical for German guys to squirrel away their cash to buy top-end hi-fi equipment.

In North America, the changeover will happen because CD-only players will be phased out. In effect, this has already happened once before, as I discovered during my last trip to the States when my old CD player bought in 1986 could not play the 20-bit remastered CDs.

My 2 cents' worth.


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