Thread: IS SHM~SACD The Closest We've Come To The Master Tapes?

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Post by seth October 15, 2011 (11 of 424)
rammiepie said:

We all know (or should know) that Blu~Ray with its 1920 x 1080p resolution is roughly half of what's on the master negative, but heck, they're blowing them out rather cheaply.

So my question is, are $55+ Single~layered, Stereo only SHM~SACDs an exact duplicate of the existing analogue master tapes?

I own roughly 24 of them and am certainly convinced that they truly sound wonderful and I'm sure on a pricier SACD player (dCs or Playback Design variety) that they will sound even better.....

But are they considered definitive duplicates of the master tapes?

Given that some level of remixing occurs with subsequent releases, we're always hearing the master tapes as filtered through the person who did the new mix.

Post by off the grid October 15, 2011 (12 of 424)
But are they considered definitive duplicates of the master tapes?
Hey Rammie

The SHM SACD 2 channel re-issues of a number of the classic rock/pop titles are now offering the original analog master tapes with no EQ, compression or re-mastering of any sort just a straight analog to DSD conversion. Theoretically this may offer us the best digital version closest to what the performers/engineers were trying to attain at the time of the recordings. Who's Next and Sticky Fingers SHM SACDs offer the best examples of what rock classics can sound like with no manipulation of the original analog tapes other than the DSD conversion. I love having the abliity to turn my pre-amp's volume control up to it's optimum range and hear the full dynamics of these recordings, kind of like getting out of second gear and into cruise control overdrive. There can be downsides to this approach as Michi's review of "It's Only Rock and Roll" suggests that that set of master tapes may have benefited from a little re-mastering...I will await my copy and give it a spin on the Esoteric X-05. Gotta figure that these straight non manipulated analog tape to DSD SHM SACDs are as close as a "definitive duplicate" as we are ever going to have available...

Post by rammiepie October 15, 2011 (13 of 424)
Seth, aren't a lot of the SHM~SACD flat transfers? I know Claude surmised that since a lot of Universal/Japan's analogue masters are derived from the American master tapes (which reside in the country of origin) and 96/24 masters also derived from the original analogue masters but why would they be manipulated in any way?

That's why I'm a big fan of Analogue Productions SACDs.....and even MoFi. They usually always strike their SACDs from the absolute master tapes supposedly without ANY manipulation whatsoever.

In fact, in the case of Oscar Peterson's Verve SACD "We Get Requests," they {AP} actually for the first time used the original three track master tapes which NONE of the Japanese SACDs utilized.

Post by seth October 15, 2011 (14 of 424)
rammiepie said:

Seth, aren't a lot of the SHM~SACD flat transfers? I know Claude surmised that since a lot of Universal/Japan's analogue masters are derived from the American master tapes (which reside in the country of origin) and 96/24 masters also derived from the original analogue masters but why would they be manipulated in any way?

Even if they're using a previous created 96/24 master, it's likely that some remixing went on between that release and whatever the previous one was (whether a lower rez digital transfer for an earlier CD release or the analogue stereo master created for LP). Unless the recording was a two-track, the stereo master is always a combination of multiple tracks. I'd venture to say that almost all digital masters utilize different mixes than what you heard on LP. The analogue stereo master is a second generation copy of the original master tapes, so if you converted it to digital, then you wouldn't have actually "remastered" the recording from the original master tapes.

Post by audioholik October 16, 2011 (15 of 424)
rammiepie said:

But are they considered definitive duplicates of the master tapes?

Have any of these tapes been transferred to digital with the Grimm Audio converter?

Post by rammiepie October 16, 2011 (16 of 424)
audioholik said:

Have any of these tapes been transferred to digital with the Grimm Audio converter?

What are you on drugs? Or perhaps baby aspirin?

I'm beginning to think that the Grimm is some figment of my imagination that only comes out at night {being that it's so underutilized}.

Post by rammiepie October 16, 2011 (17 of 424)
seth said:

Even if they're using a previous created 96/24 master, it's likely that some remixing went on between that release and whatever the previous one was (whether a lower rez digital transfer for an earlier CD release or the analogue stereo master created for LP). Unless the recording was a two-track, the stereo master is always a combination of multiple tracks. I'd venture to say that almost all digital masters utilize different mixes than what you heard on LP. The analogue stereo master is a second generation copy of the original master tapes, so if you converted it to digital, then you wouldn't have actually "remastered" the recording from the original master tapes.

Seems to me we're better off sticking to the American brands which ARE from the original analogue master tapes rather than pay such outrageous money for 2nd generation or 96/24 knockoffs.

Maybe Made in the USA still means something and they are also a lot cheaper and further discounted at that!

The Suitcase Pimps "Love Is Grand" SACD is by far one of the best sounding pop/rock albums I have in my collection and it's currently available from Amazon US for $14 brand new. Finally played my SHM~SACD of John Mayall's Blues Breaker album and it has absolutely NO bass ...... vocals and instruments are clear as a bell but it's disheartening to miss those lower octaves and my player is VERY capable of outputting prodigious amounts of bass content.

Post by audioholik October 16, 2011 (18 of 424)
rammiepie said:

What are you on drugs? Or perhaps baby aspirin?

I'm beginning to think that the Grimm is some figment of my imagination that only comes out at night {being that it's so underutilized}.

One baby aspirin anyone?

Calm down Rammiepie, maybe someone in the future will use the Grimm converter and you will have your definitive duplicates of the master tapes...

Post by rammiepie October 16, 2011 (19 of 424)
audioholik said:

One baby aspirin anyone?

Calm down Rammiepie, maybe someone in the future will use the Grimm converter and you will have your definitive duplicates of the master tapes...

Even Michi said that it's up to the individual to choose the converter of his choice and so far, as far as I know, only AP's Nat King Cole SACDs have been mastered using the Grimm. Can you name any other recent SACDs that have used the Grimm........were the Verve SACDs mastered using the Grimm......probably NOT! And they're certainly ALL from analogue master tapes.

Post by audioholik October 16, 2011 (20 of 424)
rammiepie said:

Even Michi said that it's up to the individual to choose the converter of his choice and so far, as far as I know, only AP's Nat King Cole SACDs have been mastered using the Grimm. Can you name any other recent SACDs that have used the Grimm........were the Verve SACDs mastered using the Grimm......probably NOT! And they're certainly ALL from analogue master tapes.

If AP had hired Kevin Gray to do the Verve transfers (as originally planned), he would have probably used the Grimm

Interview with Audio Mastering Engineer Kevin Grey
http://www.myspace.com/cuthbert84/blog/493231862

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