Post by AmonRa May 22, 2012 (161 of 183)
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rammiepie said:
Really don't think 24 vs. 32 bit makes that much of a difference, hooperthom.
Rammipie writes some sense! DSD has at best 20 bit DR, 24 bit PCM 21 bit with best converters. Using 32 bit converters means there are 12 empty bits juggled with the 20 real ones instead of only 4. Those 4 can easily contain all possible manipulation rounding errors. Bigger number sounds more impressive, output not.
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Post by Bobpaule May 22, 2012 (162 of 183)
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Fitzcaraldo215 said:
I guess I am utterly shocked to hear that the $169 Oppo lost out to the $4,500 MSRP Denon. Will wonders never cease!
Indeed, in the end it comes down to component with the superior decoding. In my case the DACs in the A1 are superior to the DHC-80.3, furthermore it has a truly balanced stereo pathway with separate PSU, roughly 30% of the real estate in this component is occupied by 2 channel. I played it both ways, to my ears the A1 did a superior job stereo and multi, so i invested in quality interconnects.
And if you get a Classe SSP800 or similar the DSD from the Oppo will be sufficient. Unfortunately you cannot get that component refurb with 1 yr
warranty and 1/3 MSRP like the A1.
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I am sorry if this was answered during the thread, but I stopped reading at page 10 (sorry guys), but up to page 10, I still had a lingering question.
I personally have no preference for analog or digital, however for multi-channel SACD playback I tended toward the analog out because it seemed that few Pre/Pros, DACs and receivers did DSD decoding...at least in the sub $1K range.
Well let me qualify that: I currently have a very inexpensive Yamaha HTR-3064 that does do DSD decoding over HDMI. However, I am on the hunt for something better.
I am looking to spend AROUND $1000 for a multi-channel SACD player. I don't care about DVD-A playback, I don't have any DVD-As, although I am considering getting a few discs (I have a used Yamaha DVD-S2500 on the way as an upgrade to my current cheap Sony BDP-S480, which should suffice for DVDA). I dont care about Blu-Ray or 3D Blu-Ray playback (my current cheapy Sony is good enough for that, I am not a massive HT fan). I care about RBCD playback very much, but not to the extent where I would be willing to compromise SACD playback to achieve better RBCD playback (there are many good stand alone, affordable CD players for that, like the Emotiva ERC-2 for just over $400).
As far as what I will be hooking up my player to, thats where I have questions. Currently I am considering getting the Emotiva UMC-1 Preprocessor and the Emotiva XPA-5 Amplifier (I currently have my Yamaha HTR-3064 trying its hardest to drive my Wharfedale Evo2-20 towers and Evo2 Center channel and I will eventually add Evo2-8 bookshelfs for my rear speakers). The Emotiva set up would run about $1200.
At that price point I am having a hard time finding stand alone DACs/Pres/Amp combos that will do DSD decoding in that price area. I know Yamaha makes high end receivers that will do it, but how will the quality be compared to a setup with stand alone pre + stand alone amp, for equal price? It seems for that price range, my only option for HDMI would be an all in one HTR.
So, unless I am seriously underestimating what HTRs can do through HDMI (and if I am can you guys recommend some), it seems like the best solution for me would be to look into an SACD player that does its own decoding and provides good 5-channel analog, and it seems like the best player out there right now, at that price point is the Oppo-95 (or Marantz UD7006). Of course, its a major bonus that it can do Blu-Ray and DVDA, but even without these features, the general feeling I seem to get, based on reviews, is that its multi-chan SACD playback is spectacular and its RBCD playback is on par (if not a bit nicer) than $500 standalone RBCD players like the Emotiva ERC-2.
Would you guys concur that for someone looking to spend $1200 on a HTR or Preproc/Amp setup and $1000 for a SACD player, the best option would be to go the Preproc/Amp route along with an Oppo 95 (or maybe a Marantz UD7006)? If not, what HTR + Player/transport would you recommend? I am looking for first and foremost MUSIC performance; a glance at my SACD collection tells you the type of music I like, but to spell it out I like rock, jazz and blues the most, but also love metal, rap, soul and old school R&B (oldies) and SOME pop, folk/country, electronic, and classical.
I do see that the Sony XA9000ES SACD can be had for about $1K from ebay, but that would used, with no warranty (unless I bought one) and i am not sure if this is even the Sony you guys seem to be raving about in this thread (these players do not have "SCD" prefacing the XA9000ES part); but if that player's analog out is better than the Oppo/Marantz, id have open ears.
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Post by pacwin June 21, 2012 (164 of 183)
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BruinPirateAnteater said:
I personally have no preference for analog or digital, however for multi-channel SACD playback I tended toward the analog out because it seemed that few Pre/Pros, DACs and receivers did DSD decoding...at least in the sub $1K range.
There is no dichotomy between digital and analogue. You cant listen to anything but analogue and your audio sources are digital . You need both.
I think its unlikely that your Yamaha HTR-3064 does anything other than what the manual says which is that it can "transfer" DSD to the receiver. Its going to convert that to PCM and probably six channels of 24/44.1 or 24/48 after its transferred it. I think you are better off sending higher bit rate PCM in the first place from the Sony S480 i.e actually turn off the DSD bit streaming over HDMI. Trying to do justice to DSD with this type of gear is not worth it, unless you have the treated/dedicated room, five equal full range speakers, correct ITU angles etc etc.
What you should be focussing on is the quality and competence of the room correction software in the receiver and getting 5 or 6 channels of high grade properly signal processed room adapted PCM. Pure DSD solutions especially multichannel are really more in line with computer based DSD playback or pro gear. And even then its geek territory and you still need the listening environment, unless you have the one or two odd ball DSD players with time delay built in on chip, which is still comparatively crude but better than not having it.
The Emotiva pre processor is trying to do too much (AM/FM tuner?) and besides I dont think it groks DSD one iota either. Also the Emotiva manual shows SACD hookup in its manual as analog not digital which I thought was telling. I wouldn't ever bother with a second hand disc player of any class. They are all opto mechanical and they all fail tire and wear. .
If you are really only interested in DSD->Analogue and want to spin discs then you should be probably looking at doing it in the player, and then I think it absorbs your budget just on the player. Then to really benefit from the hard won DSD purity you need the analog gear to match to reveal its subtleties.
Better off in my view looking at the best Mch receiver and researching the best room correction processor capabilities in combination with a low cost transport that you can discard every few years should it fail. Stereo listeners are also these days looking at room correction processing and computer based DSD already has some preliminary capabilities in the market (time delay mostly but frequency response on its way), while computer based PCM room correction is well advanced. Pursuing the receiver route you have a lot of technology choices in that regard. If HT is not a requirement try and find processors that don't do video processing.
Down the track we are almost certainly going to see DSD DACS with HDMI inputs (They may already be announced but they will be stereo units first off I suspect), DSD/PWM digital amplifiers, and with enough computing power and the continuing resurgence of DSD, eventually DSD equivalents to todays PCM room correction softwares in the higher end receivers.
How was your experience setting up the Yamaha HTR-3064 with its Yamaha Parametric room Acoustic Optimizer?
http://blog.acousticfrontiers.com/whats-new/2010/7/1/room-correction-a-primer.html
http://www.hifizine.com/2010/12/sound-correction-in-the-frequency-and-time-domain/
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@ BruinPirateAnteater. Why not keep your receiver and use the preouts to feed the power amp?
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BruinPirateAnteater said:
Would you guys concur that for someone looking to spend $1200 on a HTR or Preproc/Amp setup and $1000 for a SACD player, the best option would be to go the Preproc/Amp route along with an Oppo 95 (or maybe a Marantz UD7006)? If not, what HTR + Player/transport would you recommend? I am looking for first and foremost MUSIC performance; a glance at my SACD collection tells you the type of music I like, but to spell it out I like rock, jazz and blues the most, but also love metal, rap, soul and old school R&B (oldies) and SOME pop, folk/country, electronic, and classical.
I suspect I'm a bit closer to your equipment range than most folks here. I'm listening with an Oppo BDP-93 ($500) hooked up to a Yamaha RX-A3000 (The successor RX-A3010 lists for $1900, but can doubtless be found for much less) via a single HDMI cable, and I'm very happy with it. You don't need analog these days if you're using a HTR - especially if you're listening in multichannel. And...given your price range, the BDP-93 via HDMI would seem to clearly be your best bet unless you're dead-set on analog (in which case get the 95).
The 3xxx line of Yamahas can handle DSD directly in "Pure Direct" mode - many other high-end recievers have this capability as well. Whether you want to use it is up to you...it disables room correction, bass management, etc, but to my ears has a more natural tone on many discs.
Ignore this if you only listen in stereo, naturally...you're looking for a completely different system.
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^^^^
To BruinPirateAnteater:
If you are only going to play SACD's and RBCD's and even some video's through the player, why do you need a processor at all?
Get the Oppo BDP-95 and plug it directly into your 5 channel amplifiers and directly into the sub. If you are playing video, then send it through HDMI-1 without audio directly to the TV.
The only reason to have the processor is if you plan on using DSP, or if you have multiple players that need to be connected to a single pre-amp.
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I think pacquin hits the nail on the head. Others may disagree,but in the overall scheme of things, considering all the factors that make for good sound, pure DSD to analog is not one of the main items, particularly if you are budget constrained. Quality, pure DSD can be done inexpensively enough at the player, but keeping the rest of your analog chain at comparable quality levels can get quite expensive to avoid compromise. Also, do not forget that properly done pure DSD Mch absolutely requires 5 identical, equidistant, full range speakers. There is also no bass management and comprehensive subwoofer support via pure DSD. Can your room/budget accommodate this?
Room correction is much, much more important. It is one of the very biggest breakthroughs in audio history, which is easily verified in a properly calibrated system by switching it off and on. I have convinced a number of audiophiles that this is true in my own system. They have all embarked on this path, and are now just as enthusiastic about it as I in their own systems. We are all primarily classical music listeners with much live concert going experience as a reference.
If your budget is $2,200. I think you can do better than your suggested path. Get a $500 Oppo 93 and run it via HDMI into one of the following: Denon 4311 or Integra DTR 70.3. I think after discounts on the AVR, this should fit your budget. Both have Audyssey XT/32, which is one of the very best room EQ solutions currently in existence. Both AVRs support bitstreaming DSD to the AVR, so you can experiment with it via pure DSD vs. PCM conversion including full room EQ. I have done that in my own system, which is one reason why I believe pure DSD is way,way down on the list of critical factors.
There is an Onkyo equivalent to the Integra, which might be even cheaper with similar features. But, I did not recommend it because it does not support an upgrade to Audyssey Pro. This might be a worthwhile $700 upgrade down the road. I definitely recommend considering it for the future.
The only other room EQ solution in AVRs worth mentioning is Anthem ARC. However, Anthem AVR's do not support DSD input. I do recommend bitstreaming DSD out of the Oppo for conversion to PCM by the processor where possible. I do not have much regard for other EQ in AVRs, such as Yamaha or Pioneer.
My friends with $40-$100k systems all use the Oppo 93, and they are quite enthusiastic about it. They also like its support of hard drive playback via USB or eSata, useful for downloads or CD rips. We all think CDs sound somewhat better from the hard drive. Several of these friends migrated from pure DSD setups, with absolutely no regrets. They are quite delighted that I showed them the way forward to much better sound via room EQ. Several replaced far more expensive pure DSD-analog equipment in the process.
Here is a analogy. A shrinking, and now tiny, number of camera diehards consider analog cameras to still be the absolute best in photography. Nothing can beat their analog Leicas or whatever with good old 35mm film, they think. Perhaps, they are right. But, it is debatable. When you look at the high cost of this vs. the tiny, esoteric quality differences with digital cameras, not to mention convenience and tremendously more important features, is it any wonder that digital photograpy dominates, even among pros? It is a growing landslide that has led and continues to lead to the eventual extinction of all but a tiny number of esoteric high end analog cameras at ever higher prices.
Thus far, I have heard only one pure DSD system I would put on a pedestal. But, it was quite, expensive and it required extensive room treatments. It was very good, but I think you have to be ready to spend hugely to achieve top notch sound that way. Other pure DSD systems I know of have not measured up in the opinions their owners, who replaced them and are extremely happy they made the move to HDMI and conversion to PCM with room EQ. I am quite convinced that the obsession with pure DSD Mch is based largely on a myth, and that top quality sound based in that architecture is available only to the very few who can afford to go all out with their systems. For normal folk, like you and me, the HDMI based architecture including room EQ sounds amazingly good at far lower cost. And, it improves the sound, particularly the bass, in ways that are extremely difficult for even the best pure DSD systems to achieve.
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@pacwin - Yeah, I know that I cant listen to anything but analog and all my sources are digital and that all I am trying to figure out is at what point I should be doing the D-A conversion. I did try doing straight PCM through HDMI on my Sony and compared it to DSD bitstream and DSD did in fact end up sounding better.
Units like the Emotiva XMC-1, which is still not out, seems to be promising DSD Decoding from HDMI. The main reason why I am looking at PrePro + Amp option vs a very expensive AVR option is because I do plan to eventually buy Wharfedale Jade speakers. I love the sound signature of my Evos, but I can tell my HTR-3064 just does not have the juice to properly drive them. I do think that an AVR like the Denon 4311 would drive my Evos perfectly, but I get the feeling that it might not be able to drive something on the order of the Jades properly, and I'd have to end up buying an amp anyway (turning the Denon into an expensive PrePro). Am I wrong here? Would the Denon 4311 have more than enough power to properly drive something like the Jades?
As far as YPAO for my HTR-3064, now I wish I would have spent a few more dollars and bought the HTR-4064. The 3064 does not have YPAO support, the 4064 does.
@FunkyMonkey - no pre outs on the 3064. Its the lowliest of the low of the Yamaha line of receivers. Theres Adventege, RX and HTR. HTR being the lowest. Of the the 3 HTR models, the 3064 is the lowliest of the 3 :(
@Ubertrout and Fitz - perhaps here is where my noobness shows. Why does room correction/bass management get disabled for a analog MCH in SACD feed? Does RC/BM only work for digital in sources? Do you loose RC when you play vinyl or any other analog source? I have been trying to hunt down the answer to this. I am convinced that RC/BM will get disabled for MCH Analog SACD, thats what I keep reading over and over in many threads at many forums, but no one seems to say why this happens. If the source is analog, how does an AVER/PrePro know it originated from a DSD source? That just seems strange to me, there should be no digital info fed into an analog in, once the digital info has been converted to analog via a DAC before being fed into an AVR/PrePro analog in, right? So am I right in thinking the RC/BM only works on digital in sources and not on any analog sources, including MCH analog in, regardless of where the analog signal originated from, right? wrong?
The XMC-1 like i said looks promising because its a PrePro that should be able to do DSD decoding through HDMI and RC, and one of my friends is looking to buy a UMC-1 so he would receive a $600 rebate certificate for an XMC-1 which he will gladly gift to me, so I could buy it for $899 and then buy a good 5-Ch Amp for about $800 and an Oppo-93 and run everything through HDMI. But if he doesnt buy a UMC, then the price of the XMC would be prohibitive and I would probably go with the Denon 4311 and Oppo 93 and do HDMI.
I would still like to understand WHY AVRs/PrePros disable the RC/BM for MCH Analog from a SACD.
I would like to add that I recently received my used Yamaha DVD-S2500 player, and compared its analog (2-channel) out to my HTR 3064 vs the Sony's HDMI out to the same receiver and found the S2500 through stereo analog sounded much better (not a subtle difference, but a pronounced difference). I bought the player because I expected it to be better than my Sony setup, so I cant say I was surprised, but I am surprised. I know that back in 05/06 the S2500 was a $750 player, but I figured the modern Burr-Brown DAC of the HTR-3064 would be superior to the older DAC of the S2500 (I am not sure what DAC the S2500 has, I've been trying to hunt that down too), but maybe the S2500 DAC is still better than the one in the HTR-3064, it was also just a 2-channel test, so maybe I shouldnt have been shocked (its not like my system has been room corrected).
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Also, what advantages would a better "transport" have? I mean, thinking about it, why would I bother with buying an Oppo-93 just as a transport, when I can just use my Sony as a transport? Is it because there may be a question of whether the Sony or other cheaper players are actually bitstreaming DSD or not? I am pretty sure the Sony is bit-streaming DSD because when I set the player to downsample to PCM before sending it to the AVR, I could tell the difference in sound quality. The purported DSD mode sounded better than PCM.
I am sure there are some audible differences a quality transport can provide, I am just wondering if, given the level of my other equipment, if those differences would be significant (like $500 significant) or not.
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