Thread: SACD Headphone Listening

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Post by Blu Falcon May 30, 2011 (91 of 106)
My three cans: Grado SR-60, SR-325is, and Audio Technica ATH-M50. Although generally considered "rock" headphones, I find my Grados best suited for jazz, easy listening and classical. The ATH-M50s have been seeing a lot of use lately and they are a good all-around performer. They are my go-to cans when I don't want to disturb those around me considering the Grado is an open-air/ open-back design.

Post by Fugue May 30, 2011 (92 of 106)
Arnaldo said:

Either way, my all time favorite is really the open-back Edition 10, with a very un-headphone like presentation, an almost out-of-the-head concert-hall perspective. But while I find it an amazing transducer for classical SACDs, some hardcore headphone listeners of electronic pop don't seem to appreciate it as much. Like I said, it's all a matter of choice...

Have you had a chance to compare them to Stax headphones (such as SR 404 series or the Omega)? If so, what were the results?

Post by Ernani71 June 4, 2011 (93 of 106)
Kal Rubinson said:

Why would they?

Forgive my answering your question with one of my own, but do you then disagree with Arnaldo? Comparing my closed back Sennheiser HD280 with the open back HD650, my impressions accord with his. However, I am comparing two unevenly matched headphones. Moreover, I didn't want to assume any sort of general rule based merely on my experience with just two headphones.

Last week I was disappointed with the 650, then I listened to a sony rbcd of Bruno Walter conducting Brahms' second and third symphonies. That particular recording exploited the capabilites and characteristics of the 650 in a way that few classical recordings do. What do I blame when I'm unsatisfied with the sound? There are so many differnt variables. I blame the 650 . . . but only until I find a recording that makes them shine. Then I'm back to loving them.

I guess I disagree with your assumption that there is only one standard to judge recordings by. In judging a recording, you ask, "How well does the recording replicate the live acoustic experience?" I think it's something to strive for, but the fact is that you can do things with recordings that you can't do live, and I believe that every medium should strive to fulfill its own possibilites. I like recordings that exploit the fact that they are recordings. I have no problem with recordings that make my headphones come alive. Even though it sounds nothing like the original acoustic event, it still sounds great on its own terms and judged by the headphone's own innate strengths.

Post by Ernani71 June 4, 2011 (94 of 106)
Arnaldo said:

I for one, really miss their sparkling sound...

Even with your current headphones and amp?

Post by Kal Rubinson June 4, 2011 (95 of 106)
Arnaldo said:

As their classification implies, open-back headphones have by design a much more open sound and soundstage than closed-back designs. Just think in terms of how an unenclosed, or rather, a dipole speaker sounds to understand the principle of opening the sound up beyond the head. But as to being necessarily better, it's all a matter of choice and compromise. Closed-backs offer much better isolation from outside noises, coupled with a fuller sound, (I guess) because sound-waves cannot propagate except forward to the ear.

Well, even though I am not much of a headphone listener, I do understand that. However, I am not sure that accounts for the perceived differences. Comparing closed-box vs. dipole speakers is different because the listener actually hears the output from the rear of the transducer as it is reflected by room boundaries.

With closed headphones, the rear radiation from the driver should be completely absorbed by the enclosure, as with speakers, but, with open headphones, the rear radiation is dissipated into the room and does not return to the listener's ears. Differences between the two types would seem to depend on the effectiveness of the enclosure in the closed phones and how much of the rear radiation is absorbed vs. reflected back though the diaphragm.

I suspect that a big part of the perception of spatial presentation is due to the passage of normal ambient room sounds through open-back headphones which the brain conflates with the musical sounds. After all, how do they sound without any music?

Post by Kal Rubinson June 4, 2011 (96 of 106)
Ernani71 said:

Forgive my answering your question with one of my own, but do you then disagree with Arnaldo? Comparing my closed back Sennheiser HD280 with the open back HD650, my impressions accord with his.

........snip..................

I guess I disagree with your assumption that there is only one standard to judge recordings by. In judging a recording, you ask, "How well does the recording replicate the live acoustic experience?" I think it's something to strive for, but the fact is that you can do things with recordings that you can't do live, and I believe that every medium should strive to fulfill its own possibilites. I like recordings that exploit the fact that they are recordings. I have no problem with recordings that make my headphones come alive. Even though it sounds nothing like the original acoustic event, it still sounds great on its own terms and judged by the headphone's own innate strengths.

As I have said before, I am not a headphone listener and I am not disagreeing with Arnaldo's observations. There is another post where I explain why I ask the question.

As for assumptions, we can each choose our own as long as we state them clearly in our discussions. Some of mine are that I dislike music over headphones (Smyth Realiser apart) and that, yes, my standard is "How well does the recording replicate the live acoustic experience?" I can appreciate that you differ.

Kal

Post by Kal Rubinson June 4, 2011 (97 of 106)
Arnaldo said:

But I'm inclined to disagree with Kal's theory on the differences between open and closed-back headphones, based solely on my personal and subjective listening experience. One simple and interesting experiment is to suddenly cover the back of the earcups with your hands while listening to music with open headphones. The sound changes drastically in every way, including coloration, soundstaging, and of course, openness. I'll leave it to others though to dig further on the specific reason for this.

IMHO, that is not a valid test since open phones are designed to be open (wrt FR, etc.) and closed phones are acoustically design to absorb and not reflect the back wave (unlike your hands).

What happens if you put your hands over or near your ears when listening to speakers? :-)

Still, I am asking if anyone has compared what they hear with the two types of phones in the absence of music/signal. I have not done this myself as I do not own any phones.

Post by Kal Rubinson June 4, 2011 (98 of 106)
Arnaldo said:

A more appropriate question would be "what happens if you place the back of your speakers very close to a wall (or corner), while listening to music?"

We know that answer. In fact, those findings are fairly comparable to putting your hands over your open phones. So?

Post by Kal Rubinson June 4, 2011 (99 of 106)
Arnaldo said:

So, isn't this just going around in circles?

Not really. I asked a simple question: Do you hear differences between an open-back headphone and a closed-back one when there is no audio signal being fed to it? It was not a rhetorical question.

Post by Kal Rubinson June 4, 2011 (100 of 106)
Arnaldo said:

The answer is yes but the question is still the wrong one, no matter how many times it's asked.

May I suggest putting this on hold until your own actual comparison between open and closed-back headphones? This is starting to resemble an A/B vs. A/B/X discussion...

First, I do not intend to do this comparison as I have no real interest in headphones.

Second, what I am interested in is how we hear what we say we hear. For example, certain noise spectra can create the illusion of extended HF in recordings which lack a real HF extension.

If, indeed, open and closed headphones do sound different without a signal, it seems reasonable that this difference will be superimposed on whatever is heard when there is a signal.

For sake of this discussion, I must rely on the comments of those who do have both types of headphones and I would appreciate any descriptions that you or others can offer.

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