Thread: SACD without the Big Players?!?

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Post by canonical June 17, 2010 (11 of 41)
Operabuff said:

Btw, I do have another sacd recording of Bartok concerto with Eschenbach. That was the reason why I did not jump on the sacd wagon. Since to my ears it was not such a great improvement over the cd sound and sonically not that exciting, to be honest not exciting in any way, in other words it put me off, now Living Stereo got me back.

Curious ....
Does it say on the box at what resolution your Ondine Bartok Eschenbach was recorded? Standard CD resolution is 16 bit / 44.1 kHz ... In order to discern an appreciable improvement over CD, the recording needs to be recorded in a higher resolution to start with ... something like 24 bit 96 kHz or 24 bit 88.2 kHz or pure DSD.

There is, unfortunately, a lot of mediocre dross around masquerading as the real thing ... and it makes purchasing SACDs very difficult. That is actually one advantage of the download model ... because downloads always state what you are getting, whereas several SACD manufacturers don't provide this information, they record at standard CD resolution or similar, and market their wares as SACD. That might be OK for the multi-channel crowd (if it is multi-channel), but it is hopeless for the stereo hi-rez crowd. I have a big pile of mediocre discs on my desk which I will have to offload somewhere. But I keep on going because when you find the gems, it is worth it.

As for the big names ... to their credit, DG, Decca and Philips always state the recording resolution on their packaging. Unfortunately, about a third of their SACD releases (especially the early ones) are essentially CD resolution (44.1 kHz or 48 kHz with 24 bits) ... so some care is needed here in purchasing. I have compiled an essentially complete list of all the DG, Decca and Philips recordings listed by recording resolution ... which I should put up on the forum some time. Of course, in the forum, it gets lost via its ephemeral nature ... It would be better, of course, to have this information listed in the database, at least where this information is stated by the manufacturer. But past suggestions in this vein have met with blank refusal from zeus, as I understand it.

Post by Cherubino June 17, 2010 (12 of 41)
Cherubino said:

I just sent an emails to HM USA, MDT, Prestoclassical and Crotchet regarding this. I'd be very happy to be wrong about this. I'll post here when I get any replies.

Received the following two replies:

From Prestoclassical:
I'm told that no, this title (Jacob's Magic Flute), won't be issued on SACD. Some HM USA titles are still being released on that format but I think HM France has essentially abandoned it.
Pity.
Best wishes,
Chris

From MDT:
Good Afternoon
They tell me that the Jacob's Magic Flute will only be released in CD format. SACD format has not been abandoned. Some releases are still only coming out as hybrids. What has happened with some previous SACD releases is that levels of sales fall off after the initial release and it is not considered re pressing once the issue has sold out.
Judy


Replies from Crotchet and Harmonia Mundi itself will be posted upon receipt. Fingers crossed, there's a ray of hope for limited good news here, at least.

Post by Operabuff June 17, 2010 (13 of 41)
canonical said:

Curious ....
Does it say on the box at what resolution your Ondine Bartok Eschenbach was recorded?

Nope, no info on how it was recorded. But the reviews in the titles section are also not exstatic. Bartok: Concerto for Orchestra - Eschenbach


The Heifetz - Beethoven sounds amazing in comparison, even though it was recorded 40 years earlier.
I also ordered the Reiner - Bartok concerto from Living Stereo, which is supposed to sound great. Also a lot more satisfying artistically.
I had bought the Eschenbach to test SACD 2 years ago and it was a failure for me in every respect (just my opinion).

Post by DSD June 17, 2010 (14 of 41)
canonical said:

... I have compiled an essentially complete list of all the DG, Decca and Philips recordings listed by recording resolution ... which I should put up on the forum some time. Of course, in the forum, it gets lost via its ephemeral nature ...

When you put it on the forum I can provide a link to it from the home page of my blog SACD lives, making it easy to find.

Post by Cherubino June 17, 2010 (15 of 41)
zeus said:

The following was just released (I bought a copy myself):

Baltic Runes - Hillier

and I'm just about to add three more new recordings from Harmonia Mundi.

I just finished listening to the beautiful and deeply moving Rachmaninov: Vespers, All-night Vigil - Hillier and am interested in the other Harmonia Mundi SACDs by the Estonian Philharmonic Chamber Choir and Paul Hillier. If you could spare a few moments to post your impression of Baltic Runes - Hillier it would be much appreciated.

Post by canonical June 17, 2010 (16 of 41)
Operabuff said:

Nope, no info on how it was recorded. But the reviews in the titles section are also not exstatic. Bartok: Concerto for Orchestra - Eschenbach

The Heifetz - Beethoven sounds amazing in comparison, even though it was recorded 40 years earlier.

You might then also very much enjoy the superb Heifetz Sibelius on Living Stereo:

Sibelius, Prokofiev, Glazunov: Violin Concertos - Heifetz

... as well as some of the outstanding Mercury Living Presence SACDs, such as:

Schumann, Lalo, Saint-Saëns: Cello Concertos - Starker

and

Bach: Six Suites for Solo Cello - Janos Starker (this one has sold out, and the price has gone ballistic)

I think these Mercury Living Presence releases are even better than the Living Stereo SACDs.

Post by canonical June 17, 2010 (17 of 41)
DSD said:

When you put it on the forum I can provide a link to it from the home page of my blog SACD lives, making it easy to find.

Thanks. Yes - will need to find a home for it somewhere, sometime :)

Post by Windsurfer June 17, 2010 (18 of 41)
Operabuff said:


Btw, I do have another sacd recording of Bartok concerto with Eschenbach. That was the reason why I did not jump on the sacd wagon. Since to my ears it was not such a great improvement over the cd sound and sonically not that exciting, to be honest not exciting in any way, in other words it put me off, now Living Stereo got me back.

Opera is not so well served on SACD as I would like it to be. On the other hand - in my opinion - you really need to experience a good multi-channel "surround sound" sacd to discover what the medium is capable of in terms of in terms of allowing you to close your eyes and, rather than imagine you are in the concert hall, allow you to actually FEEL ( as long as your eyes are closed ) that you have somehow been transported there! The Eschenbach Concerto for Orchestra, while not meeting your expectations artistically is one that would create that illusion for you if heard over a quality multi-channel system. An alternative however that should be satisfying in every way would be:

Bartok: Concerto for Orchestra etc. - Zoltan Kocsis

For me the difference between stereo and multichannel as realized by PentaTone, Channel Classics, Tudor, Coviello Classics, BIS, Chandos, Ancalagon, and many others is like the difference between night and day. The effect is often breath-taking.

In my mind this experience usually transcends differences in interpretation.

One important point: You should plan to have a full range vertically oriented speaker for the center channel - ideally the same as the left and right. The rear speakers can usually be a smaller version of the front channels as long as they are voiced the same or at least are NOT brighter than the front channel speakers.

Post by Operabuff June 17, 2010 (19 of 41)
Windsurfer said:

The Eschenbach Concerto for Orchestra, while not meeting your expectations artistically is one that would create that illusion for you heard over a quality multi-channel system.

Well in all fairness I have only listened to the Stereo part of the Eschenbach sacd, since that is my setup. I am a stereo person and have a surround setup for watching movies.
All I could write about was the stereo layer and that (to me) was underwhelming sonically.

I am sure good multichannel setups really must be thrilling, but I am more than satisfied with a good stereo recording. If it is done right, it can sound like a concerthall to me.
But making good stereo recordings that give you this feeling is very difficult, probably more so than multichannel.


Hope my sacd orders will arrive soon, then I can compare it to the Reiner version.

Post by Kal Rubinson June 17, 2010 (20 of 41)
Windsurfer said:

Opera is not so well served on SACD as I would like it to be.

I agree but BR seems to be picking up the mantle of preferred medium.

Kal

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