Thread: Any experiences with a combi DVD-A and SACD player?

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Post by Borchgrevink September 22, 2003 (1 of 13)
Anyone tried one of these combined "miracles"?

Christian

Post by Khorn September 22, 2003 (2 of 13)
Borchgrevink said:

Anyone tried one of these combined "miracles"?

Christian

On the "lower" end say under 10K most of what I have heard/read suggests that a
"universal" machine favours one format (SACD or DVD-A) over the other as far as sound quality/reproduction is concerned. It is usually the format that the manufacturing company is mainly aligned with that gets the better performace mainly due to what that is what they have been concentrating on and developing in the rest of their line.

I VERY firmly believe that the addition on Video circuitry ultimately interfears with audio quality. As a matter of fact one high end maker has delayed putting out a "universal" machine because of the noise generated by that circuitry makes the units S/N unaccptable as far as they are concerned, and no they can't leave the vid out because it's part of the DVD DVD-A format spec.

Now, some super high end machines may be able to overcome this with build but, we are talking units that are far, far out of the price range that most people could afford, probably in the 15k-20k up range.

As music is my primary iterest I'll stick with SACD until this problem can be solved in "real world affordable" equipment. Also I just listen in stereo.

For movies I buy sub $500 DVD players and I consider them commodities that can be discarded when newer technology such as HD-DVD comes along.

One of my DVD-A players does indeed play DVD-A discs but, the unit itself sounds like pure garbage on all audio except movies and that is the purpose I use it for. It (the unit I have) is not useable for "serious" audio listening IMHO.

Post by randy September 24, 2003 (3 of 13)
I own a Denon DVD-2900 "universal" player. The player lists at USD$1000; I paid $940; others have paid less from what I have read.

I am generally happy with this unit, although it does have some minor quirks. For one, fast forward and reverse for SACD are limited to 8x, and it is not possible for reverse beyond the beginning of a track to the end of the previous track. Also, the bass management for 2-channel programs seems to be useless, as far as I can tell (at least when using a receiver without adjustable input levels).

Among other features, this unit has a switch on the front panel ("Pure Direct") that can be used to deactivate the video circuitry and/or the unit display.

My best guess from reading literature and specifications is that most combo players (at least in this price range or below) downsample the DSD signal to PCM before converting to analog. The only other player I considered that doesn't seem to do this is the Yamaha DVD-S2300. Other players I considered include models from Onkyo/Integra and Pioneer.

One advantage to going the "universal" route is that for about the same money as one would spend on two players, one ends up with higher quality video circuitry. (I expect to be able to tell the difference with my next television. ;)

Post by azure September 25, 2003 (4 of 13)
Randy:
"My best guess from reading literature and specifications is that most combo players (at least in this price range or below) downsample the DSD signal to PCM before converting to analog."

I actually prefer the dedicated SACD players myself [and I prefer single-layer SACDs over the Hybrids]. Although the “universal” combo players are now becoming a lot more popular[and Hybrid SACDs are also more popular]. I always thought that these players must have two separate converters –one for the PCM signal and one for the DSD signal – I mean, whats the point of purchasing a DSD SACD disc when it is going to be converted to PCM.
I’m not saying your wrong Randy.
I just don’t understand, when the move to the superior linearity of DSD was to overcome the inherent distortion in PCM processing.

An article in the latest Gramophone [October] also states this situation
[Although I do know that the Sony DVD players with SACD capability have a separate converter specifically for the DSD signal, it does not convert to PCM.] I always thought that the DSD signal could not be directly converted to PCM and I believe I may have read this.
James Vesey in a review of the Pioneer DV-565A universal Player [p. 112] also states that this model “delivers SACD and DVD-Audio discs via its 192Khz/24 bit digital-to-analogue converter.” When I first read this, I thought the author may have been mistaken because I gather you require a dedicated DSD to analog converter for SACD.
It is an issue that may need clarification. I will attempt to contact Pioneer and ask what the go is.
But I feel they may use only the one chip which icludes two types of converters –one for PCM and the other for DSD and Direct Stream Transfer -SADAC.

Like I said, I thought the author of the article was mistaken when further he writes:
"The latest DSD-recorded discs, made as true multichannel recordings, have a focus and vitality that eludes much of the older material remastered to the high resolution formats. Again, the Pioneer isn’t as revealing of this is as the Marantz DV8300, but the difference in sound quality is clear, [. . .] Good SACD through the Pioneer has a presence and a spine-tingling quality that eludes most DVD-A discs."

For the author to draw distinct quality difference between the PCM [DVD-A] and DSD material [SACD] I actually thought that the unit must have a separate SADAC converters – maybe only 3 where as the high end multichannel models have 6 SADACs
At least with the Denon model you can bypass –switch off the video side of operations which suppose to reduce any distortion.
I suppose it is where you coming from – I love music – so I don’t need all the multimedia stuff to entice me to purchase a recording
I always purchase a recording in regards to the genre of music, quality of performance and quality and technique of recording.
With the new DSD surround, it will give the engineer “room” to move and experiment with.

I think with the combo –universal players, manufacturers are changing tack and do not want to be drawn into another format war.

Post by randy September 25, 2003 (5 of 13)
azure,

As I indicated I am by no means certain of my position. I am aware that I am directly contradicting information I've read on AA. Here is some of the evidence that has drawn me to my position:

Denon gives the following specification for the DVD-2900: "DENON designed, Burr-Brown 24-bit, 192-kHz DSD-1790 Audio DACs that decode PCM and DSD signals discretely with no down-conversion of DSD." This has been reworded since I bought; it is more clear than it was before. As I recall this used to say "separate audio paths."

In contrast, Onkyo's owner's manual for the DV-SP800 on its website doesn't even list separate SNR and DR specs for SACD. Also the Pioneer DV-47Ai features list says simply "Triple 192KHz/24-bit (3x2 channel) Audio DAC's for Superior Sound Quality."

I recall reading a review some time ago (I think it was for the Pioneer DV-45A) that mentioned down-conversion, as did the review you cite.

In your cite you quoted the reviewer as saying "... spine-tingling quality that eludes most DVD-A discs." I do not interpret this as the reviewer expressing a belief that said quality is not possible with DVD-A.

Here is an article describing DSD to PCM conversion: http://www.daisy-laser.com/tech3g.htm

I appreciate your disbelief that manufacturers would take this shortcut to save a few dollars. However, my objectivist/skeptic/realist nature tells me that 1) if I had a player that was performing this down-conversion I would probably not know what I was missing, and 2) I won't know whether I could tell the difference listening to two such different players side-by-side until I try it. So I am not surprised that the manufacturers would save the money, at least with the cheaper players. That said, I am an SACD fan because I find the specifications and claims about the superiority of DSD to be compelling, at least when compared to the 96/24 PCM of multichannel DVD-A.

("that manufacturers would take this shortcut to save a few dollars" Egad! I've just contradicted my own position on modding and tweaking! Then again, maybe not. ;)

Post by azure September 25, 2003 (6 of 13)
It maybe that the manufacturers have "cut-corners" to deliver a cheaper universal player.
I am glad that the issue has been raised in this thread as I find it very interesting.

As you Randy and Khorn have previously mention the quality and costs of universal players vary - we can not judge all these types of players the same way.
In the article by James Vesey, he draws a distinction between the Linn Unidisk 1.1 - a "no-compromise player that should set new standards" and the cheaper models.
I suppose the issue could boil down to: if the industry heads towards universal players, the manufacturers must clearly state to the public that their player has SADACs that offer the full potential of SACD and DSD.

Thanks so much for the reference to DSD>SBM Direct PC
What is AA?

Post by azure September 25, 2003 (7 of 13)
randy said:
In your cite you quoted the reviewer as saying "... spine-tingling quality that eludes most DVD-A discs." I do not interpret this as the reviewer expressing a belief that said quality is not possible with DVD-A.

I actually thought that if this player converts all streams to PCM... then the difference between playing an SACD and DVD-A would not be remarkable. Acknowledging that other variables like quality of recording etc. can impact on playback.
So, when he [James Vesey] said "Good SACD through the Pioneer has a presence and a spine-tingling quality that eludes most DVD-A discs [. . .] here SACD has the advantage, not least because many of its surround mixes seem more subtle than those on the DVD-A discs released to date."
and going by the authors comparison.....I thought that you could not make that type of distinction [between SACD and DVDA] if all material is downconverted to PCM.
Looking back at it now, it appears I'm wrong to draw that conclusion!

I do not question the quality of DVD-A [although I personally prefer SACd for many reasons - the major one is not remaining in the straightjacket of PCM]

Post by zeus September 25, 2003 (8 of 13)
azure said:

What is AA?

AA is Audio Asylum. You'll find plenty of great info on SACD hardware here:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/bbs.html

As for universal players, I think the main problem is that manufacturers have priced them higher than you'd expect for a given sound quality (in a dedicated player). There are cheap do-everything players but you're unlikely to hear what SACD has to offer with these. The Teac DV-50 seems to be getting good feedback ... but at about US $5K it should do!

I personally think a better option is the best SACD player you can afford plus a separate throw-away DVD player (with DVD-A if required). Video is evolving too fast to have all your money tied up in a single expensive machine. But then again I know of others that have swapped a good SACD player for a lesser universal just for convenience. Luckily there's plenty of options these days.

Post by rse September 29, 2003 (9 of 13)
azure said:

James Vesey in a review of the Pioneer DV-565A universal Player [p. 112] also states that this model “delivers SACD and DVD-Audio discs via its 192Khz/24 bit digital-to-analogue converter.” When I first read this, I thought the author may have been mistaken because I gather you require a dedicated DSD to analog converter for SACD.

The low end Pioneer 563A uses the Burr Brown DSD1791 DA chip (at least for the front left and right) which handles both DSD and PCM (it has separate digital inputs for each.) On a scope you can readily see the difference (DSD has lots of noise on the output whereasd PCM does not.) So there appears to be no downconversion, at least on this player.

http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/productfolder.jhtml?genericPartNumber=DSD1791

Post by azure September 29, 2003 (10 of 13)
rse said:

the Burr Brown DSD1791 DA chip (at least for the front left and right) which handles both DSD and PCM (it has separate digital inputs for each.) On a scope you can readily see the difference (DSD has lots of noise on the output whereasd PCM does not.) So there appears to be no downconversion, at least on this player.

Would you recommend this type of chip? I gather Pioneer may source similar types of chips from other manufacturers for European and Asian markets those chips may be made in Taiwan for instance.
thanks for the reply

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