Thread: Sony debuts $1,500 SACD player with HDMI output

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Post by Paul Clark October 17, 2009 (251 of 290)
Kal Rubinson said:

Yes, I have several confirmations, none from Pioneer or Sony, that PQLS and HATS are the same.

Quote: "I have a Pio[neer] DV79 with PQLS and a Sony AVR with HATS, and they work perfectly."
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15005817&postcount=2063

Post by ciderglider October 18, 2009 (252 of 290)
Paul Clark said:

Does anyone know which audio DACs are used in Sony's STR-DA6400ES A/V Receiver?

The LA Audio File review mentions Analog Devices SHARC (ADSP-21266 and ADSP-21366) chips. However, I'm not sure these are actually DACs.

Post by Paul Clark October 18, 2009 (253 of 290)
ciderglider said:

The LA Audio File review mentions Analog Devices SHARC (ADSP-21266 and ADSP-21366) chips. However, I'm not sure these are actually DACs.

The SHARC's look like proccessors http://www.analog.com/en/embedded-processing-dsp/sharc/adsp-21366/processors/product.html

I hope to have a Sony service manual soon.
I appreciate your response none the less.

Post by hookedondsd October 18, 2009 (254 of 290)
Paul Clark said:

Does anyone know which audio DACs are used in Sony's STR-DA6400ES A/V
Receiver?

From the documents posted earlier in this thread it appears that dsd is fed directly to the digital amplifier and low pass filter then to the speakers. Digital amps use a one bit stream as the input and output directly an analog signal. Even analog input signals are converted to dsd before they can be fed to the digital amps.
I'm very interested in using the oppo blu-ray/sacd player via hdmi to this reciever.

Post by Fitzcaraldo215 October 19, 2009 (255 of 290)
Paul Clark said:

Quote: "I have a Pio[neer] DV79 with PQLS and a Sony AVR with HATS, and they work perfectly."
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15005817&postcount=2063

I have read the link, and while the author seems knowledgeable, I do not think there is any easy way of knowing whether an HDMI link between player and processor is actually using the PQLS/HATS functionality or not. Remember the HDMI link also works in transmitting the signal without that functionality. That's how I have been using it between Oppo players and an Integra DTC 9.8, neither of which support the PQLS/HATS protocol. Unless there is a light or other indicator that comes on in both player and processor, the transmission might be plain vanilla or it might be PQLS/HATS. We have no idea what kinds of sonic clues or improvements we should be hearing with the protocol working. The Pioneer/Sony combination mentioned would transmit signal, even if PQLS in the Pioneer was not communicating with HATS in the Sony. There is no way to know if "they work perfectly" together, without probing and testing inside the respective machines.

Actually, I think HDMI works pretty well without the protocol, but I would certainly be in favor of it becomming standardized and widely implemented. It is fully compatible with existing features of HDMI 1.3.

Post by Paul Clark October 19, 2009 (256 of 290)
Fitzcaraldo215 said:

I have read the link, and while the author seems knowledgeable, I do not think there is any easy way of knowing whether an HDMI link between player and processor is actually using the PQLS/HATS functionality or not. Remember the HDMI link also works in transmitting the signal without that functionality. That's how I have been using it between Oppo players and an Integra DTC 9.8, neither of which support the PQLS/HATS protocol. Unless there is a light or other indicator that comes on in both player and processor, the transmission might be plain vanilla or it might be PQLS/HATS. We have no idea what kinds of sonic clues or improvements we should be hearing with the protocol working. The Pioneer/Sony combination mentioned would transmit signal, even if PQLS in the Pioneer was not communicating with HATS in the Sony. There is no way to know if "they work perfectly" together, without probing and testing inside the respective machines.

Actually, I think HDMI works pretty well without the protocol, but I would certainly be in favor of it becomming standardized and widely implemented. It is fully compatible with existing features of HDMI 1.3.

I thought I had read that the Sony STR-DA6400ES AV receiver has a front panel indicator which illuminates when it has synched up HATS with the Sony SCD-XA5400ES player. I would assume the same indicator would illuminate with Pioneer's PQLS since the common beleif is that HATS = PQLS = HDMI v1.3a ARC.

Of course you are correct. HDMI will certainly opperate as expected with or without the hardware being HATS/PQLS/ARC capable.

*** EDIT

I just read pg. 126 of the Sony STR-DA6400ES user manual. The H.A.T.S. indicator does NOT indicate that the device connected has implemented HATS/PQLS/ARC. The indicator simply means that it has been turned ON in the STR-DA6400ES AV receiver. So Fitzcaraldo is correct. An HDMI "sniffer" (signal analyzer) would be required to determine if HATS/PQLS/ARC is actually taking place between the Player and Receiver.

There may be another way to detect H.A.T.S. functionality.

On pg. 127 under Notes:

"It takes some time to output sound after a playback operation is performed (e.g., pressing the PLAY button, pressing the STOP button, pressing the PAUSE button) due to the limitations of the H.A.T.S. system. The time lag depends on the sound source. This feature may be ineffective depending on the component and the sound source, even if you set it to ON."

If your audio behaves as described above is it likely that H.A.T.S. is functioning?

You would think that the Receiver would be able to detect and indicate the player is responding to ARC commands. Much like a receiver would indicate the detection of "DSD" over HDMI.

Post by ciderglider October 19, 2009 (257 of 290)
hookedondsd said:

From the documents posted earlier in this thread it appears that dsd is fed directly to the digital amplifier and low pass filter then to the speakers. Digital amps use a one bit stream as the input and output directly an analog signal. Even analog input signals are converted to dsd before they can be fed to the digital amps.
I'm very interested in using the oppo blu-ray/sacd player via hdmi to this reciever.

The LA Audio File review of the DA6400ES states that it uses transistors in its power amp, and a photo in the review shows a large heat sink inside. This suggests that the 6400 does not feature a "digital amplifier".

Post by hookedondsd October 19, 2009 (258 of 290)
ciderglider said:

The LA Audio File review of the DA6400ES states that it uses transistors in its power amp, and a photo in the review shows a large heat sink inside. This suggests that the 6400 does not feature a "digital amplifier".

This is very well possible since the document is dated 2005 for earlier ES models. I hope that the DA in the model number indicates Digital Amp. BTW the digital amp is a transistor that switches off and on, thus the need for the low pass filter.

Post by Paul Clark October 21, 2009 (259 of 290)
Paul Clark said:

Does anyone know which audio DACs are used in Sony's STR-DA6400ES A/V Receiver?

Texa Instruments PCM1681PWP
http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm1681.pdf

Sony part# 6-712-740-01
Service manual block diagram pg. 31 & 130 / IC2218

"The DACs utilize Burr-Brown's enhanced multilevel delta-sigma architecture"

Analog Performance:
– Dynamic Range: 105 dB Typical
– SNR: 105 dB Typical
– THD+N: 0.002% Typical

Technical comments appreciated.

Post by The Seventh Taylor October 28, 2009 (260 of 290)
This diagram, which explain how HATS works over HDMI, is from an interview with Sony engineers about the STR-DA5500ES this week in AV Watch:

http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/series/dal/20091026_324492.html (Japanese)

Note that where 'lead-out' is written surely 'read-out' is meant. CDs and SACDs have a lead-out but that's irrelevant here.

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