Thread: Anybody really serious about changing from SACD to BluRay Audio Discs?

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Post by Claude May 5, 2008 (51 of 72)
Julien said:

He just meant that in terms of exploitation of the storage capacity of the disc.

Yes, I meant it in terms of use of the specifications of the formats. If you can put the same amount of music with the same resolution on the older and more popular format, why use the new format? There is no advantage in doing it.

Post by HV May 5, 2008 (52 of 72)
dobyblue said:

There are audio-only releases also en route from Rob Halford and Neil Young.

Can you give me more info? Would like to have more info about Neil Young.

Post by rammiepie May 6, 2008 (53 of 72)
One of the biggest misconceptions of what sounds better: SACD or DVD-A has to do more with the player than the format. The acknowledged champion of DVD-A was the 800/861 combo (for multi-channel DVD-A) and the 808 for Stereo only DVD-A. Only in the last few years have high-end and better sounding SACD players emerged. The mixer who did the DVD-A and SACD of BROTHERS IN ARMS himself preferred the DVD-A mix. Curious. Blu-Ray's Dolby True HD and to some extent DTS-Master Audio are based on Meridian's lossless packing codec which was the genesis for DVD-A. Unfortunately, most blu-ray players with the exception of the new Denon and Pioneer Elite are Profile l.0 or 1.1 and cannot pass the DTS-Master Pro Audio. When the real high end gets involved and can pass 3.0 (for sound recordings only) we'll be back to DVD-Audio discs with a surround layer, a stereo layer and all the extras contained on the good ole DVD Audio Disc. If we could ween most of America and the world off their I-Pods (a great idea but essentially throwing out 90% of the recording engineers sonic intent) maybe we can get serious about great sounding music. One of the biggest setbacks with all of this is that the majority of people listen to "music on the move" and do not want to sit in front of a television monitor and listen to surround music. Thus this site and this forum....we are that staunch group that crave high-resolution music. I have over 2200 high resolution recordings whether DVD-A or SACD. I love both equally and the Meridian 808 and Parasound Halo D3 have also breathed new life into my 100 or so DTS CD recordings (miraculous!). Now if Sony would only release Santana Abraxas, a long favorite DTS surround disc, in multi-channel SACD (instead of MoFi's new stereo only (non SACD) gold disc (which I'm sure sounds brilliant), I would be in hog heaven!

Post by hawk May 7, 2008 (54 of 72)
Sorry to have to post the whole article here instead of giving the link; I couldn't find the link,but here is an i nteresting artcicle from teh Econmist about teh future of Blue Ray that could add something to the discussion on thsi thread. The relevant bit to the discussion is towards the middle- It's not just about Blue ray vs HD Dvd

Sharper image
Feb 1st 2008
From Economist.com
Who needs Blu-ray or HD DVD anyway?

WITH Warner Brothers’ defection last month to the Blu-ray camp, Sony would appear to have won the battle with Toshiba over which format—Blu-ray or HD DVD—is to become the ultimate high-definition replacement for the venerable DVD.
Five of Hollywood’s eight big studios, which account for 70% of the home-video market, have now opted (or, not to put too fine a point on it, been bribed with barrow-loads of cash) to release their high-definition prints solely on Blu-ray discs. The move has sparked a fire-sale of discounted Toshiba HD DVD players, with an entry model going for less than $100.
The movie studios have been in a state of panic since their DVD sales—which account for nearly half the industry’s $45 billion annual revenue—fell off a cliff last year. They are desperate to revitalise home video sales. Most are praying Blu-ray will do the trick.
But it can’t make up the lost revenue over night. Between them, Blu-ray and HD DVD sales account for only a tiny portion of the DVD market. Hence the urgency to get the format war settled quickly—so the full weight of the industry’s marketing muscle can be put behind a single standard.
Pundits have applauded Warner’s move as a crucial step towards breaking the deadlock. The thinking is that Toshiba will now go quietly into the night. But there are good reasons why it won’t.
The most obvious one is that nothing decisive can be resolved until the next big selling season gets underway, and that’s not until next Christmas. A lot of things can change between now and then.
At the moment, Blu-ray discs are outselling HD DVDs by a margin of two to one. But that’s largely because Sony included a Blu-ray player in its new PlayStation 3 (PS3) game console. Most new PS3 owners buy a couple of Blu-ray films out of curiosity. But a PS3 costs $499, not exactly cheap, and most owners have better things to do with their consoles than watch movies.
Excluding video-game machines, Toshiba has outsold the whole of the Sony camp in terms of actual players in living rooms, thanks to its lower prices. In other words, Toshiba has a bigger installed base of committed videophiles.
Retailers love them, but would prefer that one or other of the formats would just go away. The format war has left consumers confused over which to choose, with many resolving the issue by refusing to commit to either. Retailers complain that over half the people who purchase HDTV (high-definition television) sets don’t bother to buy high-definition video players to go with them. By all accounts, they are unlikely ever to do so.
That’s largely because the “upscaling” features built into today’s HDTV sets have got so much better at artificially boosting the resolution of ordinary DVDs. Apart from sprucing up the video signal more effectively to reduce the electrical noise and optical defects, upscaling is no longer limited by the native resolution of the HDTV set itself.
A year or so ago, the best you could buy was a 720p set, with the screen’s 1,280 columns and 720 rows of pixels being refreshed progressively (that is, all at once at every cycle). The alternative, 1080i, was a fudge that worked by having half the rows in a screen of 1,920 by 1,080 pixels refreshed in one cycle, and the other (interlaced) set of rows during the next cycle.
By flipping rapidly between the screen’s two alternative sets of lines, interlacing aims to trick the eye into thinking it is seeing a higher resolution than is actually present. But the price paid is a slightly jerkier image and a flickering that can cause headaches and eyestrain. That’s why computer monitors abandoned interlacing for progressive scanning years ago.
The native resolution of the vast majority of HDTV sets today is 1080p. As such, the set’s screen can now handle the highest resolution generated by its scaling electronics. To the average viewer, an ordinary DVD played on a modern HDTV is not only a huge improvement over the picture on a standard TV, but practically indistinguishable from that produced by a Blu-ray or HD DVD disc—and all for half the disc cost and no extra piece of video gear.
Hence the lack of enthusiasm for either format. And the longer mainstream consumers find upscaled DVDs good enough, the more likely it will be that some other technology will emerge to eclipse both Blu-ray and HD DVD. Already a couple of alternatives are limbering up.
One candidate is the thumb drive, the non-volatile memory stick you plug into a computer’s USB port. Their storage capacity has soared over the past few years from megabytes to gigabytes. Industry insiders expect that, within a few years, a 32-gigabyte USB drive capable of holding as much as a Blu-ray disc will cost about the same as the latter does today. And it will be more portable, more rugged, easier to play and recordable to boot.
But before Moore’s Law can work its inexorable magic, the telephone companies will start pushing their own alternative. Over the past few years, firms such as Verizon and AT&T have been laying fat optical pipes over the “last mile” from their local telephone stations to people’s homes. In what they call a “triple play”, they aim to bundle television and broadband internet access along with telephone services in order to slow the inroads being made in their own business by the cable-television providers.
That’s only half of it. Verizon’s FiOS (fibre-optic service) can deliver raw data at speeds up to 50 megabits per second. That’s twice the as much as needed to deliver the video quality of a Blu-ray or HD DVD disc. AT&T’s U-verse isn’t far behind.
Both see high-definition video as the key to beating the cable providers, which can’t match the phone companies’ ability to provide massive bandwidth to individual households. The cable industry’s new DOCSIS 3.0 technology can transmit data at a whopping 160 megabits per second, but the bandwidth has to be shared by all the households on the same cable loop. As a result, few cable subscribers can get more than five or six megabits per second—nowhere near enough to pump high-definition video into the home.
What has become clear is that Blu-ray and HD DVD are both interim solutions—if even that. They are marginally better than upscaled DVDs, but neither will stand much of a chance against fibre’s ability to deliver high-definition video on demand. Meanwhile, neither comes close to giving the kind of “immersive reality” that vision engineers drool over.
The human eye can discern over 500 pixels per inch horizontally and vertically (say, 26,000 by 14,500 pixels on a 60-inch screen). To achieve true immersive reality—the “killer app” that consumer electronics makers see on the horizon—requires displays a dozen times sharper than today’s HDTV sets.
The Japanese have made a start. The Ultra-HDTV technology that NHK, Japan’s public broadcasting network, is currently investigating has 16 times more pixels (7,680 by 4,320) than an HDTV set. And that’s just the beginning. The betting is that both Blu-ray and HD DVD will go the way of the VHS tape, as ever sharper images begin to grab our attention.

Post by Julien May 7, 2008 (55 of 72)
I have always been convinced of that. Most people will never have huge sets at home. The best plasma TV maker, Pioneer, starts 1080P at 50 inches, and honestly with the upscaling to 1080p from a regular DVD on a 32 inches screen you won't see such a thrilling difference with blu-ray. But most people choose 32' screens because of the size of their room, and given the price of real estate our rooms don't get bigger for sure. The masses will basically find 32' or 37' to be more than enough. The bottom line is, if the price is that high for the new technology without being more practical than the old one I don't see it as successful as CD or DVD. The future will be everything from a computer to the TV sets through a wireless ultra-high bandwith device. With direct cheap renting from websites.

Post by Claude May 7, 2008 (56 of 72)
HV said:

Can you give me more info? Would like to have more info about Neil Young.

http://www.thrasherswheat.org/wheatfield.html

Neil Young has already stated in January that he does not intend to release the Archives on CD, as he considers redbook resolution to be too low.

The announcement was made at a Java conference (a technology used by Blu-ray), so naturally it was only about the Blu-ray release. But I cannot imagine this being a Blu-ray-only release, because the market is still too small.

Neil Young has already released audio-only 96/24 DVDs in the past, so I think that will be also be the case here. It would be interesting to see if anyone can hear a difference between 96/24 and 192/24 PCM with these recordings (previously unreleased demos from the 70's).

Post by Allen May 7, 2008 (57 of 72)
Julien said:

I have always been convinced of that. Most people will never have huge sets at home. The best plasma TV maker, Pioneer, starts 1080P at 50 inches, and honestly with the upscaling to 1080p from a regular DVD on a 32 inches screen you won't see such a thrilling difference with blu-ray. But most people choose 32' screens because of the size of their room, and given the price of real estate our rooms don't get bigger for sure. The masses will basically find 32' or 37' to be more than enough. The bottom line is, if the price is that high for the new technology without being more practical than the old one I don't see it as successful as CD or DVD. The future will be everything from a computer to the TV sets through a wireless ultra-high bandwith device. With direct cheap renting from websites.

Not sure where you got the impression of 50 vs 32 inches.

The matter of facts is, those of us in the States have no issue with room size. I see typically they will buy a big one in living room, one or more smaller ones for bed rooms, and of course, the retired 'huge' set will be moved to basement.

Having multi TV sets in a house are becoming a trend here. Bigger screen is not necessary better, but that is a necessity for a family as long as it is NOT the back projection type (I heard that someone is trying to dump back projection TV to replace it with a LCD or plasma).

The real issue is still with price of the BD player's price and BD's price. They are too expensive to swallow.

Post by Julien May 7, 2008 (58 of 72)
Allen said:

The real issue is still with price of the BD player's price and BD's price. They are too expensive to swallow.

Especially here in China. We buy high quality DVDs (viva piracy) for 1$US piece, and blu-ray costs what, 40 times the price?

Post by Polly Nomial May 7, 2008 (59 of 72)
Julien said:

Especially here in China. We buy high quality DVDs (viva piracy) for 1$US piece, and blu-ray costs what, 40 times the price?

If you're obtaining DVD's via piracy, that is not buying it's theft. I would hope that no-one on this site would advocate such activity. If you meant "it is possible" - then yes, that's true but then I can obtain illicit drugs should I wish to do so.

Post by hawk May 7, 2008 (60 of 72)
Allen said:


The matter of facts is, those of us in the States have no issue with room size. I see typically they will buy a big one in living room, one or more smaller ones for bed rooms, and of course, the retired 'huge' set will be moved to basement.

Wow...I think this quest for the luxury of space and obsession with size in the U.S is what is getting the country and hence the world in trouble...bigger homes-bigger mortgage crisis...bigger cars-bigger oil crisis/oil wars...the average U.S citizen equals what?...something like 30 or more Africans in terms of energy consumption? Don't get me wrong I am not suggesting an African life style or blaming the ills of the world on just one country but rather feel compelled to say that maybe less is more in this sense.

But this is getting preachy and it is not the forum for this, so let me just say that the article I posted says to me that we will probably not be needing the physical CD in terms of having a media to store films permanently. VOD means you can purchase any film and watch it whenever you want without actually having to purchase a Blue Ray disc and you will still be able to get HD streamed into your home via fiber optics or satellite transmissions. Many of the developed countries are already well into this. Ocassionally a consumer in these countries may purchase a disc- Blue Ray or otherwise- to actually have a film in their collection but I suspect this will only be,like I said,an occassional purchase.
In not so developed countries, like mine, where there is no infrastructure yet to support widespread HD broadcasting. The richer part of the population will be able to afford the TVs and the players to get into Blue Ray or some form of HD.However,only if prices come down, for I suspect that even the rich don't wish to squander their money...they will probably only purchase a few Blue Ray discs for display purposes or rent them illegally. And as for the not-so-rich...well people around here are still watching VCDs because they are cheaper than DVDs...so? Where does this leave Blue Ray and other HD type formats? well,IMHO, it still has a better chance than SACD ever did...people do sit around with their friends to watch films(like me before we had kids)or by themselves (like me after we had kids) so it's different when compared to the on-the-go type music habits of most people. However, Blur Ray will still have to overcome the issues described above and as for audio, I still feel that most are agnostic
(the don't know...don't care definition)

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