Thread: BIS thread

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Post by hanser June 9, 2009 (591 of 4131)
xavster said:

I'm not going to get involved with the whole PCM/DSD, 44.1/96khz debate, except to say that I think that the BIS recordings are on the whole excellent.

I have another question for Robert about his recordings. I'm interested in microphone placement.

Can you divulge anything about how you record? What do you use for your main stereo pair? Are they spaced omnis or a Blumlein pair or what? How do you set up mics for the surround channels?

I'm guessing the answer will depend on the venue and type of music, but is there any chance of giving a few examples?

As a follow up I would like to discuss why BIS has deviated from their minimalist miking in the past which I liked very much and have developped a tendency to spotmiking. Do not get me wrong, Robert, I still like your recordings, but they do not have anymore the special BIS touch I loved. EG the recording of the original version of the Sibelius Violin concerto: I never heard a more realistic sounding perspektive of single violin with a large orchestra with the violin perfectly integrated and occasionally even almost buried by the orchestral forces, just like in a real concert situation. I don´t think such a recording would be made today by BIS any more.

Post by bissie June 9, 2009 (592 of 4131)
hiredfox said:

Of course Bissie , you could reduce your recording teams by One thus freeing up the personnel and cash to convert the others. How many are needed anyway, it is not as if BIS SACD's are rolling off the presses at a rate of 10 per week?

Dear hiredfox,

Nice thought. Not practicable. No, with the extreme care that we lavish on the products in post-production, we are extremely hard put to even serve up the 3-a-month that we have now. We have so far been totally committed to the SACD cause, trying to enlarge the repertoire (while not forgetting the standard repertoire), and, for us, the more, the merrier. But we are a business, after all, and forced to play on the Industry's conditions. We cannot charge more for our services (since most people don't want to pay extra for something they cannot use) and so we have an upper limit as to how much every production may cost. Personnel costs much (travel, salary, per diem, hotel), and most productions cannot carry those extra costs.
Then there is another thing: artists WANT to have the SACD treatment, since it is perceived to be more prestigious. We want to give it to them - thus we have to keep the quantity up. But the artists do NOT want to give up on musical quality, and they can be exceedingly demanding, so we have to employ a system where we can serve them on that front as well, while not wasting more time than necessary.

It is so nice (I am not being sarcastic here) that so many persons involve themselves in the thought process on how to ru(i)n a record company, but here you must trust me - I am sitting with all the answers, as far as BIS is concerned.

Some may say that we should lower the quantity of recordings and go on a spending spree for the few remaining ones. I think not, not, if you are concerned about the future of SACD. I think that the more material there is available, the better for the format. That we would go bankrupt in such a process is another matter, since the extra sales of such recordings would not pay for the extra costs of recording/editing them. And, again, as long as WE can state with honesty that our recording quality is not AUDIBLY less good than the other system's, I am proud to follow the line that we have chosen. Please believe me, we have had endless internal discussions about this before deciding. It wasn't just a whim from
yours truly,

Robert

Post by xavster June 9, 2009 (593 of 4131)
xavster said:

I have another question for Robert about his recordings. I'm interested in microphone placement.

Just to clarify - I have no intention of starting a debate on your choices of mic placement/use of spot-mics.
At work I spend quite a lot of time in a recording studio, recording drum kits/guitars etc etc. I have some experience of recording classical music and my question stems from a genuine interest in how you achieve your excellent results.

Post by raffells June 9, 2009 (594 of 4131)
bissie said:

D
At this point I am blue and yellow on my back for constantly patting myself, but, seriously,

Just curious that after the last weekends Euro Results ?.Should you be thinking of
letting the Danes takes the moral high ground..After all it was that well known digital score.1-0.?

A more serious question which you obviously could have pointed out the results earlier.
Have you taken a sample from the sites doing your download and done a direct comparrison between YOUR original 44.1 24 bit file and the DSD converted one via the download.Sonic and bit comparison.
What did you think ? Leading question ... Is it just above 8hz ?
Im not sure some people are going to like the answer ..
Dave.

Post by bissie June 9, 2009 (595 of 4131)
hanser said:

As a follow up I would like to discuss why BIS has deviated from their minimalist miking in the past which I liked very much and have developped a tendency to spotmiking. Do not get me wrong, Robert, I still like your recordings, but they do not have anymore the special BIS touch I loved. EG the recording of the original version of the Sibelius Violin concerto: I never heard a more realistic sounding perspektive of single violin with a large orchestra with the violin perfectly integrated and occasionally even almost buried by the orchestral forces, just like in a real concert situation. I don´t think such a recording would be made today by BIS any more.

I don't think I am the person to answer for our present recording techniques - it is almost a decade since I was last at a recording site (my presence would make everyone nervous, since I am so critical).
But I can reveal that that Sibelius recording (BIS-CD-500) is controversial, to say it nicely. I have never been so heavily critisized - or admired - for any recording, before or since, as for that one. In all Germanic countries I was drawn and quartered ('a wonderful opportunity sorely missed' etc), whereas in the Anglo-Sachsian countries the recording was hailed to the sky, because of its naturalness, and got a Gramophone Award.
It is hard to please everyone.
Another example is a Nielsen recording we released. It was reviewed the same day in London and Los Angeles, in both cases much critisized. I don't remember which was which, but one said that the recording was FAR too dry, lacking any kind of air, whereas the other, you guessed it, said that the recording was drowned in reverb and why the hell couldn't we place the mics closer to the orchestra...
As I said, to everyone his own, and that is actually one of the great things about music and recordings - people listen, hear - and think - so differently.

I will pass on the original question to one of our Producers, who will elect whether or not to answer it.

Best - Robert

Post by emaidel June 9, 2009 (596 of 4131)
Each morning, as I log onto this site, I'm amazed that individuals continue to criticize Bissie/Robert's choice of recording media, and, without any practical knowledge of the business, have the temerity to suggest he follow their advice on how to run his company.

The purpose of this site is to promote the SACD itself, and this sort of needless disparagment of BIS accomplishes absolutely nothing, and ultimately could result in fewer sales of SACD's, therefore being totally counter-productive to the site's original intentions. In the end, as most posters here agree, BIS recordings sound excellent, and THAT is what matters. That, and NOTHING else.

Our favorite DSD supporter and endless digital critic, Teresa, has often cited Telarc's "pure" DSD recordings as the very best availalbe, yet even they have a number of truly awful sonic duds made in that fashion. Some of the newer Telarc releases also note the use of an extremely expensive Sanken microphone capable of capturing frequencies up to 100KHZ, yet at least one of those recordings - the Spano/Brahms "Ein Deutches Requiem" - has a decidedly lackluster character. BIS uses microphones that are considerably cheaper than that Sanken unit, so then is one justified in condemning him for using "cheap" microphones as well, even though his recordings sound as good as they do?

To continually criticize his choice of PCM recording (for the reasons he has so laboriously outlined) is utterly pointless, and illustrates nothing other than certain posters' biased beliefs and refusal to accept that someone (Bissie/Robert) just might know a thing or two that they don't.

What is even more amazing is Bissie's level-headed, even-tempered responses to this vitriol. I know that I wouldn't handle this pointless criticism with the aplomb that he does.

So, as has been stated repeatedly on this forum, GIVE 'IM A BREAK, ALREADY!!!

Post by xavster June 9, 2009 (597 of 4131)
bissie said:
I will pass on the original question to one of our Producers, who will elect whether or not to answer it.

Much appreciated - thank you. Not often one gets to ask questions of the top brass of one of the world's premier recording companies!

I think the recent comments here are indicative of why so few companies post on forums such as this. Criticisms are all too easy to make and a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I firmly believe that Bissie and his team are producing what they feel are the best recordings possible within the practical constraints of running a profitable business. I am stunned that people on here (many of whom are clearly more into "sound" than music) feel they are qualified to criticise.

Bissie's patience is remarkable.

Post by hanser June 9, 2009 (598 of 4131)
bissie said:

I don't think I am the person to answer for our present recording techniques - it is almost a decade since I was last at a recording site (my presence would make everyone nervous, since I am so critical).
But I can reveal that that Sibelius recording (BIS-CD-500) is controversial, to say it nicely. I have never been so heavily critisized - or admired - for any recording, before or since, as for that one. In all Germanic countries I was drawn and quartered ('a wonderful opportunity sorely missed' etc), whereas in the Anglo-Sachsian countries the recording was hailed to the sky, because of its naturalness, and got a Gramophone Award.
It is hard to please everyone.
Another example is a Nielsen recording we released. It was reviewed the same day in London and Los Angeles, in both cases much critisized. I don't remember which was which, but one said that the recording was FAR too dry, lacking any kind of air, whereas the other, you guessed it, said that the recording was drowned in reverb and why the hell couldn't we place the mics closer to the orchestra...
As I said, to everyone his own, and that is actually one of the great things about music and recordings - people listen, hear - and think - so differently.

I will pass on the original question to one of our Producers, who will elect whether or not to answer it.

Best - Robert

Thanks for the reply, very interesting. :-) Do you miss being personally involved in the recording?

Post by bissie June 9, 2009 (599 of 4131)
hanser said:

Thanks for the reply, very interesting. :-) Do you miss being personally involved in the recording?

Sometimes, when it comes to music where I really think I know more than anyone else in this company, such as choir recordings and a few other specialties (flute comes to mind), yes, I feel the old tug. On the other hand, having singlehandedly produced (and in the vast majority also handled the microphones etc) more than 600 CD:s, I think I did get more and more stressed and therefore increasingly intemperate with the poor artists (woe betide he, who came not-fully prepared to the recording), so the decision to stop was correct.
I still listen to the second edit of each and every one of our productions, and nothing gets released without my stamp of approval. Since I am super-critical and very direct, people have learned to make the 2nd edit really good.

I don't think anyone in the company would call me even-tempered and full of patience...

Robert

Post by bissie June 9, 2009 (600 of 4131)
xavster said:

Just to clarify - I have no intention of starting a debate on your choices of mic placement/use of spot-mics.
At work I spend quite a lot of time in a recording studio, recording drum kits/guitars etc etc. I have some experience of recording classical music and my question stems from a genuine interest in how you achieve your excellent results.

Here's an answer from Ingo Petry, the most senior of our recording engineers/producers.
May I suggest that someone actually takes him up on his offer towards the end. We'd be delighted to show how it is really done!
Best - Robert


Ok but only brief...

Example of a typical BIS microphone setup for large orchestra:

Main mics: spaced omnis, for example TLM 50 or KM 130 (all Neumann), if also surround sometimes an additional Center mic mostly of the same type as the AB configuration.

Surround mics: could be anything from omnis to figure of eight, depending very much on the hall and the music.

Spot mics: KM 143s, 184s, TLM 149s and other members of the Neumann family depending on instruments and/or musical content and/or hall specifics.

Distances, angles etc. run within a certain frame but are adjusted to the acoustical environment one has to cope with :-)

This is of course only a 'shopping list' and if further interested can be cooked into a meal within a more private conversation but definitely not on this Forum!
Let me use this opportunity to say that real relevant questions like microphone placement and types etc. are so much more rewarding to discuss than the lately slightly overblown recording format dispute...

The reason that many people think that BIS has a rather high score in 'good sound' is simply that we at BIS agree on certain fundamental sound ideas. That includes also the importance of certain elements which may lead towards a good recording. Terms like 'openness, no coloration, impact, smoothness, personality, naturalness etc.' are all words we try to commit ourselves to.

And I must totally disagree with anybody who claims that just because a recording is not done all the way in the DSD domain, it cannot live up towards that goal. Just because one is believing in something very strongly doesn't make it more true...

Anyway, this discussion is an endless one and the positive thing I can still see with some of these strongly minded opinions within this Forum is that as long there is a discussion there is an interest and somebody who cares! And that is definitely the case for BIS and all its contributors!

At last some idea for people who are willing to look a bit behind the scenes before making all these assumptions and black-and-white comments. I strongly recommend to try to come to a recording session (any label not just BIS) and see first-hand what is it all about! For our label not so difficult because we do recordings in almost any possibe (or impossible) place on this planet.

See you there,

Ingo Petry,

Record producer, sound engineer, BIS Records

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