Thread: iPod - off topic but I promise there is a connection

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Post by tream May 22, 2007 (1 of 27)
I am the only person I know under the age of 60 who doesn't own an iPod (or other MP3 device, making me the king of trailing edge technology. Frankly, I have almost no interest in downloading songs, and in compressed formats the sound struck me as pretty crappy. However, with 80 Gigs of memory, and various lossless algorithms, I can see a use for when I travel, and I think my car has an iPod interface. (It's a 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid). I can also seeing downloading some of the broadcasts that are becoming available.

I have a few questions for the group, and I post here because I know that a number of you use iPods, this is a group that cares about sound quality, and I will be ripping CD layers off SACD's on occasion (see, I told you there was a connection).

So, I gather what many of you do is to use your PC drive to rip the CD/CD layer to your PC, and then use iTunes to download the CD into the iPod? Do I have that part correct?

Second - what are the best lossless algorithms, and what software do you need to run on your PC? A casual Google search showed a lot of MP3 software, but I'm not interested.

Third - how much music can I expect to store in an 80 Gig iPod if I am using a lossless algorithm?

Fourth - I presume that I can download whatever I like onto my iPod, and then replace it whenever I like, simply by using iTunes to manage the iPod's memory? If I decide to copy the Ring onto my iPod, I can later replace that with Mahler symphonies?

Last - if there's a good web site that describes all of this.....thanks.

Note - I owned a Mac once - but I am strictly PC based these days.

Post by seth May 22, 2007 (2 of 27)
tream said:

I am the only person I know under the age of 60 who doesn't own an iPod (or other MP3 device, making me the king of trailing edge technology. Frankly, I have almost no interest in downloading songs, and in compressed formats the sound struck me as pretty crappy. However, with 80 Gigs of memory, and various lossless algorithms, I can see a use for when I travel, and I think my car has an iPod interface. (It's a 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid). I can also seeing downloading some of the broadcasts that are becoming available.

I have a few questions for the group, and I post here because I know that a number of you use iPods, this is a group that cares about sound quality, and I will be ripping CD layers off SACD's on occasion (see, I told you there was a connection).

So, I gather what many of you do is to use your PC drive to rip the CD/CD layer to your PC, and then use iTunes to download the CD into the iPod? Do I have that part correct?

Second - what are the best lossless algorithms, and what software do you need to run on your PC? A casual Google search showed a lot of MP3 software, but I'm not interested.

Third - how much music can I expect to store in an 80 Gig iPod if I am using a lossless algorithm?

Fourth - I presume that I can download whatever I like onto my iPod, and then replace it whenever I like, simply by using iTunes to manage the iPod's memory? If I decide to copy the Ring onto my iPod, I can later replace that with Mahler symphonies?

Last - if there's a good web site that describes all of this.....thanks.

Note - I owned a Mac once - but I am strictly PC based these days.

In short, iTunes rips and compresses the audio files from CDs and stores them on your computer's hard drive. You can also download music from the iTunes store onto your computer. You then use iTunes to select what you want to transfer over to your iPod.

Nothing is permanent on an iPod -- it's a hard drive, you can add and remove whatever you want.

Assuming that you're going to be using your iPod on the go, with consumer headphones and background noise, I think you'll find that 256kbps is good enough. Losing playtime to do lossless, only to listen to the music on an airplane is a waste.

Post by tream May 22, 2007 (3 of 27)
seth said:

In short, iTunes rips and compresses the audio files from CDs and stores them on your computer's hard drive. You can also download music from the iTunes store onto your computer. You then use iTunes to select what you want to transfer over to your iPod.

Nothing is permanent on an iPod -- it's a hard drive, you can add and remove whatever you want.

Assuming that you're going to be using your iPod on the go, with consumer headphones and background noise, I think you'll find that 256kbps is good enough. Losing playtime to do lossless, only to listen to the music on an airplane is a waste.

I also plan to be using the iPod in my office - in fact, another question - are there any really good sounding playback systems?

Post by tommwi May 22, 2007 (4 of 27)
Hope it’s OK to add some words to seth’s relevant comments.

Q1.
Correct. The iTunes SW will at your request or automatically synchronize your iPod with your PC. Simply connect the iPod and this can start automatically. You can also let iTunes synchronise your iPod with downloads available on internet (radio stations, TV programs, concerts, news), on your request. So you will always carry the latest versions of those services in your iPod.

Q2. Lossless formats:
These are compressed formats where the integrity of the original audio signal is kept, but with a reduced storage capacity by 40-60%, depending on music and SW. There are at least three relevant SW for audio. Apple Lossless, FLAC and WMA Lossless. Apple Lossless will be found only in Apple products (and QuickTime) and is not an open source. FLAC is the opposite and will be found in most SW products due to its open source nature. WMA Lossless is the Windows Media Audio product that comes with the windows media player. Make sure to use v.9, it’s much better than v.8. There is also supposed to be a v.10 around, which can handle 5.1 or 7.1 at 256 Kbps (CD quality) but I have never seen or heard it. I can say that the apple one is surprisingly good and certainly delivers good CD sound.

Don’t underestimate MP3. It can be awful but also very good, depending on bit rate. 256 kbps or higher and many will say that you’re in the CD quality range.

Q3. Storage
Typically the storage capacity on a 60 min CD is around 650 MB. With lossless 1:2 and 80 GB iPod disc you get 80/(0,650/2) = around 250 CD’s or 250 hours of music or 10 days of straight listening.

Q4. Erasing
You enter the computer and relation database world with iPod and iTunes and everything can be changed or erased. You can create an own order of playing music which is much entertaining in itself and unprecedented. The access time is momentary. With the press of a button you can get all Brahms music listed. Or all Julia Fisher recordings.

Q5. Systems
Smaller iPod systems which I find interesting are provided by Tivoli Audio, perfect for office use. For home entertainment you must consider www.slimdevices.com. They have two great products to integrate streaming HiFi into your home system. It works great! Take a very close look at the Transporter. It will fit nicely into most home systems.

/Tommy

Post by ldj325 May 22, 2007 (5 of 27)
Regarding the iPod, if you want the best SQ then it is best to use the line out, especailly of the 4th generation iPods--due to internal parts the best SQ iPod (60GB was the tops for that gen). I have A/B'd the headphone out vs the line out and I find a very significant difference. Also check out Redwine Audio http://www.redwineaudio.com/iMod.html for the iMod--available on the 4th gens and just recently on 5th gen iPods. Be aware that using the line out you either need an external amp, or as a work around get a volume attenuator (Radio Shack sells one) and use it to cut down the volume out of the iPod. (This works for me on my 4th gen iPod because the line out volume is slightly higher than the level that I like to listen at. Your results may vary depending on the iPod you get and your desired listening levels. I don't think that my listening levels are excessively loud or soft.)I also have the full set ups described below.

There is a lot more SQ to be had out of the iPod, but as in all things audio, be prepared to pay. The iMod is about $200. Then there are earphones. A very good bang for the buck earphone is the Ultimate Ears Super.fi 5 Pro (approx $175-185). But a higher lever for universal fit would be the Shure E530, Westone 3 (not out just yet, maybe June) and the Ultimate Ears Triple.fi Pro 10 at about $400. Right now Amazon has the recently discontinued model E-500 (my favorite) which is the same earphone as the 530 (naming change only)with a special module called the PTH at $350.

Then for the ultimate in earphone sound quality there are the custom fits by Ultimate Ears ($1000), Westone, and others--all north of $500.
While you can do the volume attenuator work around I described the best SQ will be with an external portable amp like a Ray Samuels Tomahawk or Hornet (approx $270, $370). There are many other amps including the Go-Vibe 6 for around $80, that are good.

There is a world of information on all things headphone as well as portable audio at www.Head-fi.org.

For years I didn't have an iPod because I'm into good SQ (vinyl is my first love and only recently discovered SACDs). But I've loved the iPod since the day I got it. Your entire library can be at your fingertips as well as your own custom playlists of your favorites. And with the upgrades mentioned the SQ can be fairly good as well, considering the portability.

I better get out of here before I get lynched for being so far OT, but you asked about SQ with the iPod.

Post by seth May 22, 2007 (6 of 27)
Check this out:

http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/articles/comments/ask-ilounge-10-20-06/

It calculates how much music you'll be able to fit onto an iPod based on the compression scheme you use.

Post by zeus May 22, 2007 (7 of 27)
seth said:

Check this out:

http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/articles/comments/ask-ilounge-10-20-06/

It calculates how much music you'll be able to fit onto an iPod based on the compression scheme you use.

The compression ratio for Apple Lossless varies considerably depending on the music content. I get an average ratio of about 2.6 for classical (iTunes tells me it's used 270GB for 46 days of music).

From my listening tests there's an audible difference all the way up to 320kbs (using AAC). 320kbs is maybe marginally preferable to Apple Lossless as it's slightly rolled off (a good thing with most CDs IMHO). Unfortunately you can't rip to Apple Lossless and transfer to the iPod at AAC without converting the files first (at least the last time I looked). Ripping and cataloguing your CDs/SA-CDs will take an inordinate amount of time so you'll want the highest quality (lossless) the first (and hopefully only) time you go through the exercise.

A few points about iPods. The earplugs they provide are crap so you'll be up for third-party ones. iPods don't last forever, maybe two years before the battery goes. Lastly, and significantly, prolonged listening will do your hearing damage, even at modest volume levels. iPods are probably great for listening through a supporting car system ... my iPod died before I ever got to try it out :-).

Post by deckerm May 22, 2007 (8 of 27)
tream said:

I am the only person I know under the age of 60 who doesn't own an iPod (or other MP3 device, making me the king of trailing edge technology. Frankly, I have almost no interest in downloading songs, and in compressed formats the sound struck me as pretty crappy. However, with 80 Gigs of memory, and various lossless algorithms, I can see a use for when I travel, and I think my car has an iPod interface. (It's a 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid). I can also seeing downloading some of the broadcasts that are becoming available.

I have a few questions for the group, and I post here because I know that a number of you use iPods, this is a group that cares about sound quality, and I will be ripping CD layers off SACD's on occasion (see, I told you there was a connection).

So, I gather what many of you do is to use your PC drive to rip the CD/CD layer to your PC, and then use iTunes to download the CD into the iPod? Do I have that part correct?

Second - what are the best lossless algorithms, and what software do you need to run on your PC? A casual Google search showed a lot of MP3 software, but I'm not interested.

Third - how much music can I expect to store in an 80 Gig iPod if I am using a lossless algorithm?

Fourth - I presume that I can download whatever I like onto my iPod, and then replace it whenever I like, simply by using iTunes to manage the iPod's memory? If I decide to copy the Ring onto my iPod, I can later replace that with Mahler symphonies?

Last - if there's a good web site that describes all of this.....thanks.

Note - I owned a Mac once - but I am strictly PC based these days.

I took 4 classical pieces to do a sound quality test in the car:
1 - Yevgeny Sudbin Scarlatti Sonata in B minor K27
2 - Jacques Loussier Toccata & Fugue in D Minor
3 - Alison Krauss Choctaw Hayride
4 - Holst Mars, from The Planets

I encoded each using AAC (Apples lossy format), Apples Lossless format, and pure .WAV conversion. Whilst I hear significant differences in the home theatre under a controlled sound environment, I could hear no difference in the car (Infiniti M35) driving 65 mph. The lesson here is, if you are using your ipod as an extension of your library in the car, rip it at the highest compression. If you plan on docking it to your home theatre and play thru it occassionally, take the space hit and go lossless.

Post by seth May 22, 2007 (9 of 27)
zeus said:

Lastly, and significantly, prolonged listening will do your hearing damage, even at modest volume levels.

Which is why you use the volume limiter so that you can prevent yourself from cranking up the volume in loud areas.

Post by tommwi May 23, 2007 (10 of 27)
One thing I wasn’t immediately aware of when I started using my iPod is that there is a limitation for iPod users when buying downloads from other sources than the music store in iTunes. The reason is that Mac, iPod and iTunes doesn’t support DRM protected WMA-files (at least the case 1 year ago). DRM stands for Digital Rights Management. This limitation will also apply to some of the other players.

The record companies decide which format their downloads should have. The retailer from where you buy downloads cannot change this. Outside iTunes DRM protected downloads are not unusual, on the contrary actually. Though I understand EMI are about to drop their DRM protection...

So the conclusion is that if you use iPod make sure you get MP3-files when shopping/downloading outside the iTunes store. That will always work.

Last I would like to stress that I don’t see any conflict with iPod listening and qualified home entertainment listening like SACD. The main thing with iPod is still the portability and the enormous handling ability. You can have a vast part of your music one click away when in kitchen, bedroom, office, car, on the beech … It opens up knew possibilities. In terms of sound quality there is no competition that threatens SACD. Not a chance! But it is becoming increasingly hot under the feet of CD’s with right equipments. And the handling is… a dream!

/Tommy

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