Thread: Some more recent listening

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Post by Peter April 11, 2006 (1 of 22)
Yesterday, I had a little unwrapping ceremony on a couple of discs. Munch's LS recordings of Mendelssohn are nearly 50 years old and wear their age lightly. The Reformation gets a fine performance, the strings in the Italian are excellent (if a little too toppily recorded) but the rest of the orchestra seems balanced too far back and is overwhelmed by the strings. The Octet movement, in its arrangement for orchestra for the 1st symphony, appears on CD/SACD for the first time and demonstrates Munch's ability to produce filigree. This is perhaps a disc for Munch and/or LS fans.

The new recording of Mozart Trios on Praga is first-class - both performances and recording. No, it's not too close-up and fierce, though you will hear intakes of breath and the odd sniff, which some may not like. My dream quartet, consisting of Colin Davis, John Barbirolli and the tennis ace Williams sisters will produce far more in grunts and groans - imagine them as recorded by Tacet, vocalising round the room.

Another listen to Beethoven/Haitink on LSO Live today. Yes, it's quite close, but there is air round the sound, and another day's listening has cemented my impression that these are very fine performances indeed, red hot. I've decided to get the rest of the cycle as it's released. I think it's a pretty good recording; I've some more LSO Live on order (sale price!), including Haitink's Brahms and Davis's Sibelius. Perhaps my Linn equipment is kind to these recordings, or others have equipment which already produces a rather forward sound which exaggerates further what's on the LSO Live discs.

Finally, I had another listen to one of my favourite performances, Rachmaninov 1 on Hyperion. It's that use of portamento......wonderful stuff. There have been quite differing opinions about the sound of these discs; I do find that unless I get the right level (and remember I listen only in stereo) the players can sound quite distant with piano in the next block of flats. With the level up, the sound comes into focus, the piano sounds full-toned, and I'm in row 15. With the LSO Live Beethoven, I'm in row 6, and if that disc is played at too low a level, it loses its focus too.

I think Dave has already mentioned how some discs evince such different opinions about recording quality. Perhaps these are due to a mixture of equipment design, room conditions and listening level. Terence, you were disappointed by the Rachmaninov's sound; do give it another try at different volume settings. With any luck, things may snap into focus. If they don't, perhaps others have some suggestions.

Post by Peter April 12, 2006 (2 of 22)
As regards recording quality perception, I notice Christophe Huss on Classics Today France generally thinks RCO Live and occasionally Pentatone to be rather average technically. See today's review here: http://www.classicstodayfrance.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=1536

PS I don't agree with him.

An interesting review on both SACD layers of the Rachmaninov/Hyperion set here:

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=8380

which may explain different views on recording quality! I see from his review Terence listens in MC, whereas I'm still stereo.

Post by Windsurfer April 12, 2006 (3 of 22)
Peter said:

As regards recording quality perception, I notice Christophe Huss on Classics Today France generally thinks RCO Live and occasionally Pentatone to be rather average technically. See today's review here: http://www.classicstodayfrance.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=1536

PS I don't agree with him.

An interesting review on both SACD layers of the Rachmaninov/Hyperion set here:

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=8380

which may explain different views on recording quality! I see from his review Terence listens in MC, whereas I'm still stereo.

Hi Peter!

Darn you! Now I have to find my English French dictionary - haven't had any French for 50 yrs.

I, like you do not agree with him and I am wondering does he hold Linn as the best SACD sound? Does he listen in Multi-channel or stereo?

I personally believe PentaTone is the source of the best sounding SACDs on the planet. Having said that though, I must say that I am currently exploring a most excellent set from SIMAX, out of Oslo. The set is "Norwegian Heartland", brought to our attention by Edvin in a very well written review. The sound is occassionally stunning in its realism. The music on the first disc is never less than interesting and occassionally it is outstanding. Another disc that gave me great pleasure is the Schubert symphonies 2@4 from Tudor

Not on the same level sonically but certainly musically absorbing is the LSO Live "Kullervo". The sound here too on occassion lifts my eyebrows with passages that make me exclaim to myself: "Wow - That was GREAT!"

BTW, you might explore these ideas for adding multi-channel. One can start by adding the rears with the purchase of small wall mounted speakers and a stereo amp. You will, however, want to obtain a good multi channel preamp. Setting volume controls for the rears and front independently is a real pain. My first experiments involved 3 separate preamps. One refrained from changing volume settings as much as possible! I now use a Bel Canto Pre 6 and find it is excellent, but hardly inexpensive.

My rear speakers are working out very well. Omni-Sats from the Canadian firm, Mirage, they are now also offered in an in-the-wall or in-ceiling configuration which I would find most appealing for new construction and otherwise as well, but for the aggravation of running the wires. A subwoofer is available if you want to cover all bases (think Linn's Poulenc organ concerto). The good thing about the OmniSats is their omnipolar design disperses the reverberant sound from the rear channels in a very convincing way. The Omnisats give much better results than I obtained originally when using the Celestion SL-6s from our upstairs stereo.

Contrary to conventional advice, the rears do not have to be of the same stupendous, incredible, magnificance as the front speakers. They are reproducing ambiance and are not generally called upon to play loud!

I made up long interconnects from Mogami's Neglex and speaker wire from Home Depot 10 gauge outdoor extension cord.

Hope I've written words of encouragement to hasten you along the path to multi-channel glory,
Bruce

Post by Peter April 12, 2006 (4 of 22)
Windsurfer said:

Hi Peter!

Darn you! Now I have to find my English French dictionary - haven't had any French for 50 yrs.

I, like you do not agree with him and I am wondering does he hold Linn as the best SACD sound? Does he listen in Multi-channel or stereo?

I personally believe PentaTone is the source of the best sounding SACDs on the planet. Having said that though, I must say that I am currently exploring a most excellent set from SIMAX, out of Oslo. The set is "Norwegian Heartland", brought to our attention by Edvin in a very well written review. The sound is occassionally stunning in its realism. The music on the first disc is never less than interesting and occassionally it is outstanding. Another disc that gave me great pleasure is the Schubert symphonies 2@4 from Tudor

Not on the same level sonically but certainly musically absorbing is the LSO Live "Kullervo". The sound here too on occassion lifts my eyebrows with passages that make me exclaim to myself: "Wow - That was GREAT!"

BTW, you might explore these ideas for adding multi-channel. One can start by adding the rears with the purchase of small wall mounted speakers and a stereo amp. You will, however, want to obtain a good multi channel preamp. Setting volume controls for the rears and front independently is a real pain. My first experiments involved 3 separate preamps. One refrained from changing volume settings as much as possible! I now use a Bel Canto Pre 6 and find it is excellent, but hardly inexpensive.

My rear speakers are working out very well. Omni-Sats from the Canadian firm, Mirage, they are now also offered in an in-the-wall or in-ceiling configuration which I would find most appealing for new construction and otherwise as well, but for the aggravation of running the wires. A subwoofer is available if you want to cover all bases (think Linn's Poulenc organ concerto). The good thing about the OmniSats is their omnipolar design disperses the reverberant sound from the rear channels in a very convincing way. The Omnisats give much better results than I obtained originally when using the Celestion SL-6s from our upstairs stereo.

Contrary to conventional advice, the rears do not have to be of the same stupendous, incredible, magnificance as the front speakers. They are reproducing ambiance and are not generally called upon to play loud!

I made up long interconnects from Mogami's Neglex and speaker wire from Home Depot 10 gauge outdoor extension cord.

Hope I've written words of encouragement to hasten you along the path to multi-channel glory,
Bruce

Hello Bruce

Thanks very much for so much useful information; one thing I can't do, though, is fix speakers to the walls, as I'll transmit too much information to my many neighbours. In passing I must say I get views of swans flying across the river to Hampton Court but my compostitional inspiration so far has not yet come in sight of Sibelius's Fifth. (Or any Sibelius, for that matter.)

My Linn Unidisc SC has a built-in preamp (which is why my insurance gave me this in exchange for a Linn CD player and pre-amp) with five channels. I didn't sell my very old system (Audiolab 8000A and believe it or not Celestion SL6s which I bought second hand nearly 25 years ago) so I could use those if pushed. I do have the Poulenc/Linn disc which Terence reviewed the other day, and take his point that in this case the speakers do need to be of a similar quality to the fronts, but in cases where the rears provide ambience, something vaguely matching will do.

I do need more power amps and have found out that Linn makes a 3 channel one. Linn isn't cheap, though!

My biggest problem apart from the cost is space for cables and speakers stands, but it's time I had another demo of surround. The only one I've had was of Holst/RSNO/Naxos on DVD-A and the difference between the stereo and surround mixes was amazing, I have to say. I'm really making excuses for not spending any money or making a decision. As I said in another post, I'm stereo by circumstance not by religion! (In the very early 70s, I Haflered rear speakers, sometimes turning them to face the wall, to provide more acoustic; I also remember turning the front ones to the wall, and tilting them upwards, to get more reflected sound. Youthful experiments. Mixed results.)

As far as the French is concerned, when M. Huss uses expressions I can't fathom out, BabelFish is a help, and sometimes provides amusement as well. I'm sure he listens in surround.

I've just a listen to the Symphonic Dances again, firstly LPO Jurowski, very well recorded in the RFH by Mike Hatch and I think entirely live from a single concert; it's also very well played, but movements 1 and 3 are significantly slower than Jansons's, whose recording I played again afterwards. It really is a knockout performance and recording, and good as Jurowski is, Jansons is better (more urgent tempi in m'ments 1 and 3) and the Concertgebouw sound is to die for. After that I played Ashkenazy's CD (Concertgebouw again), always thought of as an excellent performance and recording, and I wasn't disappointed. However, time moves on, and CD's deficiencies can be heard clearly in the string tone. It is alarming to realise that recording is 22 years old now.

Many thanks again, Bruce, and enough waffle from me. I must listen to the LS Respighi disc, a recording new to me, and perhaps tomorrow the Norwegian Heartlands set which I've had an opportunity to hear yet.

All good wishes. Peter

Post by Windsurfer May 7, 2006 (5 of 22)
My most recent listening wasn't to SACDs or any reproduced music, but the the Fry Street Quartet in concert at the Emma Willard School in Troy NY. I first heard about it 2:00 pm on the day of the concert. Called my wife and asked her: How would you like to go to a chamber music concert tonight? Since it was Friday night she was accomodating.

They played Mozart's Quartet in F, K590 Prussian #3, Rorem's Quartet - same as on the disc "Beethoven and the Voice of Modernism", and Dvorak's Opus 105.

Wow! what a concert!

These guys speak with a unanimity that other quartets must envy. A very young group, they brought an astonishing energy and sense of optimism to everthing they played.

While the ensemble was perfection in extremis, the individual solos were not quite as refined as one might expect from more experienced players or some of the rarely gifted soloists any of us could name, yet we left with a rare sense of satisfaction.

The Mozart was fresh and beautiful. The Rorem was kaliedoscopic and the Dvorak simply danced. This was a most excellent concert. If you get a chance to hear them don't pass it up!

Post by Beagle May 8, 2006 (6 of 22)
Windsurfer said:
My most recent listening wasn't to SACDs or any reproduced music, but the the Fry Street Quartet in concert

(:o)

That's my emoticon for SHEER ENVY! Was the venue in Troy the famous former Bank Bldg where Dorian records/recorded? P'raps you could add a post to the FSQ thread to draw some more attention to their more-available-than-live-concerts discs?

Funny your remark about solos. Yesterday I was trying to think of quartet members who also have solo careers; there are a few, but I don't believe they are the persons we think of when we think 'soloist'. All this led me to the provocative theory that 'soloists are musicians who aren't good enough to play in ensemble'.

Post by terence May 8, 2006 (7 of 22)
Peter said:

As regards recording quality perception, I notice Christophe Huss on Classics Today France generally thinks RCO Live and occasionally Pentatone to be rather average technically. See today's review here: http://www.classicstodayfrance.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=1536

PS I don't agree with him.

An interesting review on both SACD layers of the Rachmaninov/Hyperion set here:

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=8380

which may explain different views on recording quality! I see from his review Terence listens in MC, whereas I'm still stereo.

yes, and i was talking to my hi-fi dealer the other day, and he said he found the hough/litton/rach VG in stereo but (as i did) execrable in MC. i still hear it that way - i think it's a truly crummy piece of MC engineering.

Post by Peter May 9, 2006 (8 of 22)
Here are a few more ramblings about recent listening. Since single layer Sony SACDs are available much more cheaply from Amazon sellers, for instance, I thought I'd buy a few. I've always enjoyed Szell's performances of Wagner and Dvorak's Slavonic Dances, the latter in particular sounding disappointingly shrill and tiring on CD, spoiling such wonderful performances. I'm really impressed by Sony's remastering for these discs; the string tone is so much more faithful, and there is much more detail in the orchestration. Of course. neither disc could be mistaken for the best that could be produced today, but they're as good as could be expected from the masters, and much more easy to listen to than the CDs.

Another Sony SACD, this time not in my CD collection is Copland conducting his own works in London in the late '60s and 1970; well, what a joy! The LSO plays superbly and the recordings sound freshly minted, newer and better than the two above, most impressive. The orchestra sound as though they loved playing under the composer. This is a superb Paul Myers production.

I've had a chance to listen several times to Channel's Revueltas disc, kindly given by Edvin. Sensemaya sounds even more wicked in this version for small orchestra; I had not heard any of the other pieces on this disc before, but much enjoyed the homage to Lorca in particular. The performances show impeccable ensemble and were recorded at a single concert whose patrons were singularly well-behaved, and Channel's engineers have captured excellent sound.

Susskind's recording of Ma Vlast was also a joy to listen to; as PeteySB said "The music is played so lovingly and with attention to rhythm and inner harmonies." Exactly my feeling; Susskind, a Czech, will have had this music in his bones, and the St Louis Orchestra I'm sure realise all the details he wanted. I also have the feeling that I'm missing out with this disc by listening in stereo only, and it's one I'll take with me when I audition surround, together with Haitink's LSO Live Beethoven, an RCO Live, and some chamber music. The booklet notes for this release are detailed and excellent. Exemplary.

Alia Vox's tribute to Cervantes, Don Quijote de la Mancha - Savall, is another pleasant surprise. First of all, please do not be put off by the fact that excerpts from the book are read; they are short, add to the atmosphere and very well read, too. The "booklet" is a substantial hard-backed book with all the words in several languages. I had heard none of this music before; all I can say is disc 1 is so beautifully performed, nearly painfully, I left a few days before listening to the second disc. The recording quality is excellent, with plenty of ambience, though not too much. If you're hovering about getting this issue, go on, take the plunge.

Praga Digitals' Schubert Quintet issue which I mentioned elsewhere is also very fine; at first I thought the playing a little under-characterised, but repeated listening has underpinned my high opinion of this release (not MC).

Finally, I've heard Otto Olsson: Requiem - Ohlson, from Proprius. This is high quality music and a real discovery for me, thanks to Edvin's flagging it. Recorded over 10 years ago in a church it is richly resonant and again I feel I'd get a richer experience from a surround system. The booklet doesn't mention at what resolution the recording was made, but it's very good without being outstanding. Performance by orchestra and chorus is excellent; however, the soloists have operatic careers and it does show a little too much, though not enough to spoil the performance as a whole for me. It's good enough to stand alongside Durufle, Verdi and Faure in my collection. If you enjoy choral music, give this one a try, and it's mid-price, too!

One recording which I regret hasn't grown on me is the Lauridsen disc on Hyperion. I was much taken with this music when I first heard it on the radio and bought the disc as soon as it was issued. I have listened to it at regular intervals about a dozen times, each time feeling there is less to it than at first hearing, and I'm beginning to get the impression that it's thin in substance. It may grow on me eventually, so I'll keep it for now.

Post by Beagle May 9, 2006 (9 of 22)
Peter said:

Praga Digitals' Schubert Quintet issue which I mentioned elsewhere is also very fine; at first I thought the playing a little under-characterised, but repeated listening has underpinned my high opinion of this release...

I overshot the budget last night on some extra fine scotch for myself (Balvenie Double Wood) and a twice-the-usual-price Ozzy Shiraz for herself -- and wondered what disc would be up to the indulgence. I settled on my favourite Praga/Prazak disc: the Prázakova doing D956 and Qtt #7. A splendid match.

I am glad you have warmed to this disc as we have: sweetness and light incarnate (with weeping and the occasional temper-tantrum where appropriate).

Post by brenda July 13, 2006 (10 of 22)
have moved this post here from "Some recent Pragas" to keep recent listening in the same thread, as suggested by beagle.

Not a review, but a quick note on some recent Praga releases that have been giving me much pleasure.

The Chopin/Grieg cello sonatas disc is very good. The Chopin is played particularly well. Never been a big fan of the Grieg, a little too much late romantic density, but it sounds better here than in other versions. Sound is very rich, - immediate but still with some (natural) reverberance through which the cello can growl.

The Brahms SQ#1 and clarinet quintet is simply marvellous. The clarinet Q5 in particular is given a light, non-rhetorical performance that makes you think of the recollection of summers rather than the wistfulness of autumn. It's more touched with a dash of Mendelssohn than any other performance I can think of and is a wonderfully fresh and "different" interpretation. The quartet is also given a very fine performance. Sound is exemplary. AT LEAST five stars.

The Brahms op. 67 SQ plus piano quintet is, as you might expect, a bigger boned interpretation and recording, perhaps needing just a bit more of the space and light given to the clarinet q5 (in sound as well). That said, it is impressively powerful.

Coming as these do on top of fine Haydn quartet, Mendelssohn, Schubert, Tchaikovsky, Dvorak quartets, Czech trios and other great SACDs, Praga has become THE label for chamber music on SACD, with Pentatone deserving a special mention too. Can't wait for the next releases, - Bartok and Borodin.

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