Thread: The Rock Thread

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Post by Rickko October 17, 2015 (1941 of 2132)
rammiepie said:

BTW, the DVD~A 5.1 of Harvest (from Rhino) is screwed up royally with the channels (back/front) being totally reversed on a majority of tracks. I did reverse it recently on my Meridian 800 and it sounded fantastic but was only effective on about 6 tracks.

Ralph,

To have an opinion on the original 5.1 mix is fine. To suggest reversing back and front channels (I assume this is what you are suggesting) caused some of the tracks to sound 'fantastic'. Really? See my post of June 23, 2015. Such opinions I take with.....a grain of salt. Misleading at best.

Post by rammiepie October 17, 2015 (1942 of 2132)
Rickko said:

Ralph,

To have an opinion on the original 5.1 mix is fine. To suggest reversing back and front channels (I assume this is what you are suggesting) caused some of the tracks to sound 'fantastic'. Really? See my post of June 23, 2015. Such opinions I take with.....a grain of salt. Misleading at best.

Rick, I ONLY reported what I heard unless there were different versions (doubtful) of the DVD~A released.

Harvest was an abomination AFAIK along with a few other DVD~As (DTS Entertainment's Cassandra Wilson Travelling Miles comes to mind). It should've been corrected before it was released to the general public.

Reversing the fronts and rears on the first five or six tracks of Harvest alleviates the problem but of course doesn't hold true for the other 'correct' tracks on Harvest.

Like the missing bass on a number of tracks on the DTS Entertainment release of Santana's Abraxas and the screwed up 5.1 of George Benson's Breezin' DVD~A which AF CORRECTED on their SACD release, there have certainly been quality control issues which manifest themselves even to this day....i.e. The recent BD~A/DVD~A release of Simple Minds "Sparkle In The Rain" comes to mind.

Another misstep: Universal's initial SACD release of Norah Jones "Come Away With Me" with the out of phase surrounds.....thankfully corrected by AP's 5.1 remaster....like Night and Day! And More prominent: Ten Years After's A Space In Time DVD~V DTS 4.0 with the fronts/rears completely reversed...can only be corrected if you are utilizing analogue outputs.

There are so few hi res physical disc releases and at a premium price I think we should be assured of some kind of quality control......don't you think?

IMHO, Neil Young's Harvest and After the Gold Rush are both ripe for the AF 5.1 treatment......that's if they can negotiate an agreement with Warner Brothers and/or Young.

Post by Rickko October 17, 2015 (1943 of 2132)
rammiepie said:

Rick, I ONLY reported what I heard unless there were different versions (doubtful) of the DVD~A released.

Harvest was an abomination AFAIK along with a few other DVD~As (DTS Entertainment's Cassandra Wilson Travelling Miles comes to mind). It should've been corrected before it was released to the general public.

Reversing the fronts and rears on the first five or six tracks of Harvest alleviates the problem but of course doesn't hold true for the other 'correct' tracks on Harvest.

Post by Rickko June 23, 2015 (1379 of 1943)

rammiepie said:

Rick, have you tried the same with Neil Young's DVD~A 5.1 of Harvest where the vocals on the first few tracks come from the rear?

Unfortunately, Warners never issued a replacement as well and tis a shame since it's one of Neil's greatest albums, IMHO.

Ralph,

An interesting question on the Harvest 5.1 mix.

It has been a few years since I played this DVD Audio. I used the Oppo BDP-95 to compare Harvest through my Denon Receiver via 2 methods: the HDMI and a 5.1 cable patch with front and rear channels reversed (same arrangement as Ten Years After for the DVD of A Space in Time).

Yes, Neil Young's Harvest has his vocals noticeably placed in the rear channels for Tracks 1-4 (Out on the Weekend, Harvest, A Man Needs A Maid, Heart of Gold) and Track 6 (Old Man). On the reversed 5.1, it was readily apparent it was of inferior sound quality: the rears emitted audio that was basically drums and bass with a less robust soundfield. Yes the vocals were more prevalent at the front but the mix lost some balance. Dull would be a good word to describe it.

A few comments about the audio from the HDMI and the current 5.1 mix. Vocals do come out of the rear channels but are also output from the centre channel (and I can hear a very slight bleed on the front left and right channels with my head close to the speakers). But the most important factor was the absolutely great sound quality of this DVD Audio. I would rate it 5 Stars on Sonics for most songs (an exception is Are You Ready for the Country that was originally poorly recorded).

I have read some comments over the years about the vocals screwing up the mix by coming out of the rear channels. I never bought into it. Young's vocals are very well integrated into the 5.1 mix that is highly immersive and enveloping. It was mixed the way Neil Young wanted it to be heard. After listening to the multi-channel of Harvest again after a few years, it actually sounds even better. In my opinion, it is a fabulous 5.1 mix that requires no upgrade.

End of June 23, 2015 Post


Ralph,

From your point of view, The Harvest mix was screwed up (which is fine....your opinion). I hold no such opinion.....I really like the Harvest 5.1. I repeat the vocals in rear channels for selected songs were specifically mixed for that type of presentation.

The June 23, 2015 Post #1379 stated I reversed channels and the results were the 'extreme' opposite to your statements. I found the reversed channels negatively altered the balance of the mix and the sound was dull (I am being polite). To suggest your results were 'fantastic' by changing the mix to correct is absurd (not being so polite). Changing the mix to sound fantastic? Say What? Come on!

Post by rammiepie October 17, 2015 (1944 of 2132)
Rick, I did read your post dtd: June 23rd on this thread and I know what the problem is. I am running my MAIN system 4.0. NO Center channel.

But in my defense, and a great litmus test is the Warner DVD~A of Randy Newman's Little Criminals where his vocals are ONLY in the center channel. On my Meridian 861 v.8 pre/pro which is a pro at summing l/r fronts into a phantom center, his vocals are VERY prominent and everything integrates perfectly.

I do have two 5.1 systems so I'll give Harvest an audition on those systems and report back.

Why this problem only manifests itself on the Harvest disc is a mystery. I have literally thousands of Suround Discs (DTS, DVD~A, SACD) and I never had this problem on any other disc but Harvest.

Any input?

And BTW, have you ever heard the Meridian 800 DVD~A player because when I did reverse the channels, IT DID SOUND FANTASTIC (and does blow away my OPPO BDP~105 in the DVD~A department). NO contest there!

http://www.avrev.com/home-theater-audio-sources/dvd-audio-sacd-players/meridian-800-cd-dvd-a-v-player.html

And old review but still the best DVD~A player there is! And I just had it turbocharged with a new linear power supply.........sounds better than EVER!

And don't think I'm knocking the OPPO. I LOVE my OPPO!

BTW, Rick, do you have the Sly QUAD 4.0 yet?

Post by Rickko October 17, 2015 (1945 of 2132)
rammiepie said:

Rick, I did read your post dtd: June 23rd on this thread and I know what the problem is. I am running my MAIN system 4.0. NO Center channel.

But in my defense, and a great litmus test is the Warner DVD~A of Randy Newman's Little Criminals where his vocals are ONLY in the center channel. On my Meridian 861 v.8 pre/pro which is a pro at summing l/r fronts into a phantom center, his vocals are VERY prominent and everything integrates perfectly.

I do have two 5.1 systems so I'll give Harvest an audition on those systems and report back.

Why this problem only manifests itself on the Harvest disc is a mystery. I have literally thousands of Suround Discs (DTS, DVD~A, SACD) and I never had this problem on any other disc but Harvest.

Any input?

And BTW, have you ever heard the Meridian 800 DVD~A player because when I did reverse the channels, IT DID SOUND FANTASTIC (and does blow away my OPPO BDP~105 in the DVD~A department). NO contest there!

Ralph,

Opinions aside on the 5.1 mix and the placement of Neil Young's vocals. As a listening suggestion, I would focus on the vocals irrespective of placement. If your two 5.1 systems are set properly (and I assume your systems are), Young's vocals should give you the aural sense they are moving toward or situated in the middle of the sound field. The vocals should sound intimate.

By the way, I have never come across a report from Warner on a 5.1 mixing glitch for Harvest. I have read comments suggesting mixing problems with vocals placed in the rears but only a few (for me rumours trying to become facts). I have read both good and bad reviews of the DVD Audio (mostly good).

No, I have never heard the Meridian 800.

Sly and the Family Stone will be reviewed. It should be very special.

Rick

Post by bmoura October 18, 2015 (1946 of 2132)
Rickko said:

Sly and the Family Stone will be reviewed. It should be very special.

It is! Dance To The Music is a treat in 4 Channel Multichannel SACD.

Post by rammiepie October 18, 2015 (1947 of 2132)
bmoura said:

It is! Dance To The Music is a treat in 4 Channel Multichannel SACD.

Splendid, Brian. And will "Sittin' In" be multichannel?

Post by Marpow October 20, 2015 (1948 of 2132)
I upgraded my Megadeth mp3 files to an order through CDJapan with a bunch of Megadeth SHM CD's. They are all remastered and remixed and sound great.

DR values say different..... So What!

Post by rammiepie October 20, 2015 (1949 of 2132)
Marpow said:

I upgraded my Megadeth mp3 files to an order through CDJapan with a bunch of Megadeth SHM CD's. They are all remastered and remixed and sound great.

DR values say different..... So What!

Markie, perhaps DR stands for DUMB RATINGS.

I feel the same way. On my RBCD player and SooLoos a lot of these so called compressed RBCDs sound really great, as well.

Makes you wonder!

Post by Marpow October 20, 2015 (1950 of 2132)
rammiepie said:

Markie, perhaps DR stands for DUMB RATINGS.

I feel the same way. On my RBCD player and SooLoos a lot of these so called compressed RBCDs sound really great, as well.

Makes you wonder!

Ralph,
I have been studying the audiophile world now for a couple of years and there are general guidelines, but we listen with ears and mood and education, which in turn as we know can be a different experience for us all, on any given day.

If machines and algorithms start telling me what to like or not like, or for that matter, if people start telling me what to like or not like, than I am a goner.

I like that, Dumb Ratings, good one.

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