Thread: New Marantz receivers take pure DSD; no conversion to PCM

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Post by Fitzcaraldo215 September 25, 2014 (21 of 40)
keenly said:

Audyssey is rubbish. I would rather not use it. NO EQ is best IMO.

To each his own. No one who has heard Audyssey on vs. off in my room or in others' rooms I have heard thinks it is anything other than a major improvement. Ditto for Dirac Live in a PC, which sounds even somewhat better in my room.

Post by Yoropiko1 September 25, 2014 (22 of 40)
cordobaman said:

I have been researching the Marantz DSD-capable AVRs, and a dealer that frequents the AVS forum says that the 6009 and 7009 will play pure DSD via HDMI from an SACD player.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1611354-official-marantz-nr-1505-1605-slimline-receiver-owners-thread-2.html#post27421690

The manual for the 7009 ( in supported audio formats ) lists the various sound formats that can be "bitstreamed" from HDMI, it does not show compatibility for DSD, just the usual flavours of Dolby/DTS/PCM.

It does list compatibility for DSD @ 2.8Mhz but only in the .dsf/.dff file formats via USB/PC. The DSD light will illuminate on the front display in the presence of a DSD signal ( presumably when its receiving one of the two supported file formats via USB/PC ).

It seems pretty much every receiver released recently omits to include DSD bitstreaming for reasons only they can say and of those that do whist the DSD Light comes on having detected a DSD bitstream, most will convert the signal to PCM irrespective of whether the end user selects Direct/Pure Direct ( my own Yamaha RXV2067 is a classic example of this ). Of those very few receivers that still accept DSD and convert it to Analog without a PCM conversion, this is achieved via Propriety connection ( I'm thinking the likes of Denon Link for example ).

The Manual of the Marantz could simply have been printed in error, and in fact as you suggest, the dealer you mention could well be correct in stating his 7009 to have accepted a DSD bitstream from his HDMI output ( has he actually tried it? ).Playback is one thing, doing what you require is another. My own receiver will "playback" via HDMI when I feed it a Pure DSD signal, and my little DSD light comes on too, but what comes out of the speakers is not an pure DSD to Analog signal. The only way I can achieve that is by using my old Denon 3910 via analog six channel analog output and set pure direct on both the DVD player and my receiver thus my SACD player converts my DSD to analog, all my receiver does is simply amplify that signal.
Regards the 7009, you would need to know what DACs are used in this particular receiver and their configuration, because even having DSD capable DACs doesnt mean there will be a DSD>>>Analog conversion taking place.

Its important to know this, as I myself laboured over this very issue when I was discovering the compatibility of my own receiver regards bitstreamed DSD. I found that the vast majority of receivers with exception of a few older models from Onkyo and Denon and Yamaha were actually incapable of DSD>>>Analog either at all or without doing a PCM conversion first. The point I am making is save your money and keep what you already have which Ive no doubt is a fine sounding and capable system, or at least purchase an older receiver model that we know for sure does the DSD to Analog conversion that you are seeking to acheive : )

Post by Chris from Lafayette September 25, 2014 (23 of 40)
Yoropiko1 said:

. . .

It seems pretty much every receiver released recently omits to include DSD bitstreaming for reasons only they can say and of those that do whist the DSD Light comes on having detected a DSD bitstream, most will convert the signal to PCM irrespective of whether the end user selects Direct/Pure Direct . . .

Not only true for AVR's but for some pre-pro's as well, such as my own Marantz AV8003. The Audirvana SW on my Mac Mini shows a read-out of what Audirvana is sending (file type, bit depth and sample rate) as well as what the DAC is decoding (bit depth and sample rate). So when I played the free .dff file of the excerpt from the Fischer/BFO Mahler 1, the DAC read-out showed 24/176.4. I've found the Audirvana SW very handy to confirm just exactly what it is I'm listening to, since the Marantz display is sometimes not the most helpful.

Post by keenly September 26, 2014 (24 of 40)
Yoropiko1 said:

The manual for the 7009 ( in supported audio formats ) lists the various sound formats that can be "bitstreamed" from HDMI, it does not show compatibility for DSD, just the usual flavours of Dolby/DTS/PCM.

It does list compatibility for DSD @ 2.8Mhz but only in the .dsf/.dff file formats via USB/PC. The DSD light will illuminate on the front display in the presence of a DSD signal ( presumably when its receiving one of the two supported file formats via USB/PC ).

It seems pretty much every receiver released recently omits to include DSD bitstreaming for reasons only they can say and of those that do whist the DSD Light comes on having detected a DSD bitstream, most will convert the signal to PCM irrespective of whether the end user selects Direct/Pure Direct ( my own Yamaha RXV2067 is a classic example of this ). Of those very few receivers that still accept DSD and convert it to Analog without a PCM conversion, this is achieved via Propriety connection ( I'm thinking the likes of Denon Link for example ).

I will contact Marantz directly before buying anything. I'll email their UK site.

Yamaha 3010 receiver handles pure DSD via HDMI; I have tried that one. Now discontinued and replaced with 3030(soon to go same way), and new 3040.

Post by keenly September 26, 2014 (25 of 40)
My conversation with Marantz rep:

Jonathan McFarland: Hi, my name is Jonathan McFarland. How may I help you?
PAUL KEENAN: Hi. I am inquiring about the SR 6009 and 7009 AV receivers. I need to know if these will take PURE DSD via HDMI without converting the signal to PCM. The manuals do not state it. They say DSD but under bit streamed via HDMI it does not say. They both can play DSD via streaming.
Jonathan McFarland: please bear with me and I will confirm this for you, I will be as quick as I can
PAUL KEENAN: Ok no worries, cheers
Jonathan McFarland: Okay, the 7009 shows support for 5.1 DSD and 5.1 is not supported by network streaming so the 7009 seems to support it okay, let me just confirm the SR6009
Jonathan McFarland: It appears the 6009 supports this. In previous line-ups the 5*** model in the series has not, let me just confirm this for piece of mind
Jonathan McFarland: yes, the SR5009 does not show support for DSD 5.1
Jonathan McFarland: I can confidently confirm this then that the SR6009 and SR7009 support this
PAUL KEENAN: I have the Marantz SR7005; it does not take DSD. Some receivers state they take DSD but convert it to PCM. I need one to just concert it straight to analogue. Are you sure there is no conversion to PCM?
Jonathan McFarland: I'm fairly confident, I'm checking the DAC chipset just to be 100% sure on the matter
PAUL KEENAN: Yes that would be ideal, great
Jonathan McFarland: The DAC, a burr brown PCM1690, is a 24-bit Delta-Sigma DAC so it looks like this is just straight decoded. There is certainly nothing in the engineers manual or on the spec sheet of the DAC ( http://www.ti.com.cn/cn/lit/ds/symlink/pcm1690.pdf) that would lead me to think otherwise
Jonathan McFarland: I am confident that this is not converted to PCM. These receivers state DSD audio capability and can handly DSD over HDMI. It is usually only in the case that a receiver did not support this feature that the audio stream would likely get bumped down to LPCM 88.2. But I am confident the two models of receiver discussed can handle this
Jonathan McFarland: I hope this helps

Post by Yoropiko1 September 26, 2014 (26 of 40)
keenly said:

I will contact Marantz directly before buying anything. I'll email their UK site.

Yamaha 3010 receiver handles pure DSD via HDMI; I have tried that one. Now discontinued and replaced with 3030(soon to go same way), and new 3040.

Yes I think that is correct, in fact regards Yamaha it tends to be only their top end models that can do a DSD>>>Analog conversion, certainly in my case I was one model to low to allow myself to do that having purchased the RXV2067 when the higher spec RXV3067 had the necessary DAC configuration to carry out the DSD>>>Analog conversion, such is life eh LOL. I believe the 3010 can do the conversion, not sure about the 3030 or 3040, as often having this capability in previous models doesnt seem to ensure that the models that succeed them can still do it : (
You might struggle to get a straight answer regards compatibility from any Receiver manufacturer, seems very often even they don't know whats going on inside their own products! As I mentioned in my previous post, the manufacturer will claim compatibility with DSD bitstream but will either not know or be unwilling to detail exactly what happens once the DSD signal reaches the receiver. In fairness to Yamaha UK my very specific question to their tech dept revealed that indeed DSD bitstreams are converted to 24Bit/88.2Khz PCM before analog conversion, only their RXV3067 had the required DACs to bypass the PCM conversion.
The fact that so few people bitstream DSD in the first place and also that even those that can or do will utilise the Bass management/EQ systems within the receiver to improve the sound ( thus forcing a PCM conversion anyway ) means that few manufacturers see any benefit to offering this capability. Its a shame really because I would have liked to have tested for myself with my own ears in my own system if there was any benefit to having a pure DSD>>>Analog conversion. Truth is probably not and I dont claim to have golden ears good enough to be able to discern any difference. That and the reality that my set up perhaps wouldnt be of a high enough standard to detect the subtle changes eliminating a PCM conversion would bring.

Anyway, be interesting to see what Marantz say regards compatibility, do let us know how you get on : )

Post by Yoropiko1 September 26, 2014 (27 of 40)
keenly said:

My conversation with Marantz rep:

Jonathan McFarland: I'm fairly confident, I'm checking the DAC chipset just to be 100% sure on the matter
PAUL KEENAN: Yes that would be ideal, great
Jonathan McFarland: The DAC, a burr brown PCM1690, is a 24-bit Delta-Sigma DAC so it looks like this is just straight decoded. There is certainly nothing in the engineers manual or on the spec sheet of the DAC ( http://www.ti.com.cn/cn/lit/ds/symlink/pcm1690.pdf) that would lead me to think otherwise
Jonathan McFarland: I am confident that this is not converted to PCM. These receivers state DSD audio capability and can handly DSD over HDMI. It is usually only in the case that a receiver did not support this feature that the audio stream would likely get bumped down to LPCM 88.2. But I am confident the two models of receiver discussed can handle this
Jonathan McFarland: I hope this helps

Hmmm..I love the term " fairly confident " LMAO. Sadly, and I mean this as no disrespect to Mr McFarland who responded to your enquiry who was clearly just trying to help, but the very link he has attached regards the DAC used within the receiver ( A PCM1690 ) clearly shows the exact opposite of what he was stating. There appears to be no DSD compatibilty with the DAC at all, only sample rates of 8Khz - 192Khz / 16Bit - 32 Bit PCM. So as for the HDMI to accept a DSD bitstream, this would appear not to be possible. What would happen in this event is your source player would detect the lack of DSD capability within the receivers DAC and automatically cause the player to convert the DSD to PCM within the players DAC before accepting the bitstream, in effect you would get exactly what you get now, your player sending out the 176.4Khz/24Bit PCM! If anything this is a worse scenario than I first expected, I at least expected the Marantz to accept a DSD bitstream even if it converted to PCM later on, but it sounds like the new models will not even allow a DSD bitstream to enter at all. Of Course the best way to find out for sure is to test it, if you do decide to purchase, at the very least get the dealer to send DSD via HDMI and see if the DSD light comes on the front of the receivers display.
Compare the link you were provided for the PCM1690 DAC to this one here, if DSD functionality were possible it would mention it as per this DAC, the DSD1792A
http://www.ti.com/general/docs/lit/getliterature.tsp?genericPartNumber=dsd1792a&fileType=pdf

Post by Epsilon September 27, 2014 (28 of 40)
Yoropiko1 said:

... Its a shame really because I would have liked to have tested for myself with my own ears in my own system if there was any benefit to having a pure DSD>>>Analog conversion. Truth is probably not and I dont claim to have golden ears good enough to be able to discern any difference. That and the reality that my set up perhaps wouldnt be of a high enough standard to detect the subtle changes eliminating a PCM conversion would bring.

I have an earlier Marantz AVR (SR7001) capable of DSD to analog conversion (according to the manual it eliminates the PCM conversion in Pure Direct mode).
I have calibrated Audessey to see what the fuss was all about room correction. Well, after I compared the sound with and without Audessey, I decided to stick to pure DSD. The sound is much more detailed and has that elementary force I prefer. I must also tell that I have floorstanding front and rear speakers (though different brands) and the center speaker has identical woofers and tweeter to those in the front speakers (same brand and series). Also, when I furnished the listening room, everything was arranged in a way to give priority to speaker placement.

So, personally, I prefer direct DSD to analog conversion without letting the processor mess with the sound. But I can do without bass management and room correction.

Post by Disbeliever September 27, 2014 (29 of 40)
Epsilon said:

I have an earlier Marantz AVR (SR7001) capable of DSD to analog conversion (according to the manual it eliminates the PCM conversion in Pure Direct mode).
I have calibrated Audessey to see what the fuss was all about room correction. Well, after I compared the sound with and without Audessey, I decided to stick to pure DSD. The sound is much more detailed and has that elementary force I prefer. I must also tell that I have floorstanding front and rear speakers (though different brands) and the center speaker has identical woofers and tweeter to those in the front speakers (same brand and series). Also, when I furnished the listening room, everything was arranged in a way to give priority to speaker placement.

So, personally, I prefer direct DSD to analog conversion without letting the processor mess with the sound. But I can do without bass management and room correction.

Yes I can also do without Bass management & room correction, I have to agree with Noel Keywood Editor of Hi-Fi World that Audyssey is a gimmick, seems to appeal to some Yanks but not to Brits. I have also seen in reviews that Audyssey can be very inconsistant. I expect Fitzy will now errupt.

Post by keenly September 28, 2014 (30 of 40)
Epsilon said:

I have an earlier Marantz AVR (SR7001) capable of DSD to analog conversion (according to the manual it eliminates the PCM conversion in Pure Direct mode).
I have calibrated Audessey to see what the fuss was all about room correction. Well, after I compared the sound with and without Audessey, I decided to stick to pure DSD. The sound is much more detailed and has that elementary force I prefer. I must also tell that I have floorstanding front and rear speakers (though different brands) and the center speaker has identical woofers and tweeter to those in the front speakers (same brand and series). Also, when I furnished the listening room, everything was arranged in a way to give priority to speaker placement.

So, personally, I prefer direct DSD to analog conversion without letting the processor mess with the sound. But I can do without bass management and room correction.

Indeed. I have the same 5 speakers and my rooms treated. It is not perfect by any means but sounds better just playing sources with no EQ. I do not even use pure direct. I just play everything 'auto' on Marantz SR 7005.

There definitely is a BENEFIT to DSD vs PCM at 176khz, BUT only on some titles. A lot of titles there will not be a difference due to the recording.

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